Permenat Retainers

[JCBone]

So I just got permanent retainers on my teeth, for those who are unaware, a permenant retainer is a metal wire that is glued to the back of the canine teeth. Anyways, I have found that I am having a bit of trouble articulating since they protrude a little bit. Is this just something that I will adjust to or should I have them removed?

[Neo Bri]

It might just get better. But I'd also say that you might consider tonguing farther back. My tongue comes nowhere near my canines/front teeth. I tongue on the avieler ridge (that bumpy ridge on your mouth-roof) or farther back.

[Doug Elliott]

Tonguing farther back like that can feel very awkward at first, but it's usually worth doing. The tip motion ends up being more up and down instead of forward and backward.

[JCBone]

For reference, I tongue with the mid forward part of my tongue on the ledge while the tip goes down and hangs out behind my bottom teeth.

[LeTromboniste]

So I just got permenat retainers on my teeth, for those who are unaware, a permenant retainer is a metal wire that is glued to the back of the canine teeth. Anyways, I have found that I am having a bit of trouble articulating sing they protrude a little bit. Is this just something that I will adjust to or should I have them removed?

I have one behind my upper teeth. Used to have one on the lower teeth as well. Here's my experience:

Articulations suffer at first, I believe because your tongue hitting the spot it's used to hit no longer creates a proper seal, and/or the timing of your tonguing is ever so slightly thrown off. But for me, things adjusted themselves on their own very quickly (within a few weeks). I didn't have to consciously look for a different articulation point, it just got better as my tongue got used to it. I wouldn't worry too much about it in terms of affecting your playing now, and I would say give it some time before you decide it's negatively affecting your playing. You might find that it does of course, but an adaptation period is normal.

However, and I don't mean to alarm you, I do advise caution and awareness in the medium-long term. These wound wires can eventually fail, for a variety of reasons. They can become deformed because of chewing on something hard on the wrong spot of the wire for example, or as happened to me, they can start to try to unwind, either because of damage or a manufacturing flaw. When they do bend or try to unwind, they can quite quickly change your dentition as instead of applying force to retain the alignment, they now apply force pulling or pushing onto certain teeth. The one on my bottom teeth did that. It developed a torque along its axis, and started pulling my right canine tooth back and down, making the root push forward and up and creating pain in my jaw. After a while I started noticing that my tooth had moved, went the the orthodontist, they cut the wire between that canine and the next tooth to stop the torque being applied to that canine any further. Turned out the torque was coming from further down the wire, because that next tooth promptly started being pulled as well. I had the whole wire removed and a plastic nighttime retainer made, but those two teeth have been crooked since, tilted somewhat towards the inside of my mouth, which must have affected my embouchure. Last time I went to have my plastic retainer mouthpiece replaced, the orthodontist told me he no longer installs the permanent wire retainers, as he has had too many clients with wire failures, and they made me a plastic retainer for the upper teeth for me to wear a couple times a week, essentially to make sure that if the wire does fail, something prevents it from doing the same thing that happened below, and so I can feel if it starts moving, as the plastic retainer will be tighter and uncomfortable if things move.

I'm not necessarily saying you should have it removed. They can last for a very long time (the one that broke on me only lasted a couple years or so, but I've had the other one for over a decade now and it still hasn't failed). But I do recommend staying on the look-out for signs that something is moving, and consulting your orthodontist if you feel discomfort or notice anything unusual with the teeth the wire is glued to.

[spencercarran]

I would repeat all of LeTromboniste's comments (right down to one retainer failing after a couple years and the other going a decade-plus without incident). The one of mine that failed came completely unglued at one attachment point, which was unpleasant. Anyways, as long as they stay in properly, they'll feel unpleasant/unfamiliar at first and then fade into the background as you get accustomed to them.

The only thing I want to add is that you should now be extra vigorous about dental hygiene. It's quite a bit harder to brush/floss properly around those retainers, and if you don't pay closer attention to those areas your dentist will certainly notice the ill effects.

[robcat2075]

My trombone playing was derailed just from getting a cap on a tooth. I could barely tongue anymore. I'm sure it's far worse having wires glued to your teeth.

Eventually I adapted. It took many hours to get tonguing going again but I did get over it.

You probably can too, it will just take more hours... so get started now! I'm not sure what I changed.

I figure straight teeth are more important than trombone playing. Find a way to work with the braces.

And then you can do it all over again when they come out!

I presume that removable braces, like the Vis-align scheme, were considered by your dental professional and rejected for some valid reason.

[JCBone]

My trombone playing was derailed just from getting a cap on a tooth. I could barely tongue anymore. I'm sure it's far worse having wires glued to your teeth.

Eventually I adapted. It took many hours to get tonguing going again but I did get over it.

You probably can too, it will just take more hours... so get started now! I'm not sure what I changed.

I figure straight teeth are more important than trombone playing. Find a way to work with the braces.

And then you can do it all over again when they come out!

I presume that removable braces, like the Vis-align scheme, were considered by your dental professional and rejected for some valid reason.

I'm actually already past the braces stage. A permenant retainer goes behind the teeth instead of infront. My playing hasn't been affected as badly as I expected it to be but there definitely are some adjustments to be made.

[harrisonreed]

My dentist told me to do all these crazy things to have straight teeth, even though they are just slightly uneven in front. Glad I didn't do it. Removing the wisdom teeth was the only one that really truly needed to happen, as they would have completely messed up my other teeth and my jaw.

Was the dental work needed to prevent you from having jaw issues or to correct severely misaligned teeth? If it was just for some minor cosmetic fix, it's probably not worth it -- ask anyone who drives on the left side of the road -- they get on without it.

[robcat2075]

I'm actually already past the braces stage. A permenant retainer goes behind the teeth instead of infront.

It's glued to your teeth but somehow it's not "braces"? That sounds like something orthodontists came up so they could say you were "past the braces stage".

I can't argue with whether you need it or not... but everyone I've known who had "a retainer" had something they popped into their mouth at night and could take out when they needed to not have something in their mouth.

If you need it, you need it! If there is a removable alternative, I'd look into that.

[LeTromboniste]

I'm actually already past the braces stage. A permenant retainer goes behind the teeth instead of infront.

It's glued to your teeth but somehow it's not "braces"? That sounds like something orthodontists came up so they could say you were "past the braces stage".

I can't argue with whether you need it or not... but everyone I've known who had "a retainer" had something they popped into their mouth at night and could take out when they needed to not have something in their mouth.

If you need it, you need it! If there is a removable alternative, I'd look into that.

It is a standard option and I wouldn't be surprised if it were older than the plastic retainers. No its not braces. Braces are little boxes glued to your teeth, into which a succession of differently shaped wires and occasionally springs are clipped. The retainer wire is glued directly behind your teeth, not in front, and while the braces apply force to your teeth in carefully planned ways to actually move your teeth, the retainer wire is just that, a retainer. It merely prevents your more delicate front teeth from moving once the braces treatment it over (that is, unless it fails). In principle it's not any more expensive than the fairly cheap plastic retainers (it costs about 3 times more but is supposed to and often does last 5+ times longer). Not everyone wants to have to remember to put on the plastic retainers every night. Plus they're not exactly the nicest thing to wear or wake up to. Assuming the rate of failure and the risks associated with failure were low, the wire is much nicer than the retainers for a lot of people. But given that they do fail and then can completely ruin the work that's been done to your teeth, I agree they maybe shouldn't be an option at all and plastic retainers are both simpler and better.

[robcat2075]

The nomenclature is jargony.

In normal usage a "brace" would be something that tries to keep something in place rather than trying to move something from where it is. I wonder how that happened. I'd blame the British but this stuff appears to be an American invention.


As i look at pictures, inside/outside seems to be the only distinction. The mechanism by which they apply force to the teeth is the same.


braces...



permanent retainer...





But, as a great American statesman once shrugged, "It is what it is."

[Kbiggs]

My experience was similar to Maximillien’s. I had regular braces in middle school, then a standard plastic retainer, then a “permanent” retainer on the bottom and top, both of which failed and fell out after about 2 years. I remember having difficulty with tonguing when I had the permanent retainer.

About 10 years ago (my late 40’s), I tried to have my teeth realigned with the InvisAlign system. It worked well until the end of the plastic trays, and my dentist gave me a “permanent” plastic retainer for use at night. Because I grind my teeth at night (along with sleep apnea), I broke several retainers. Eventually, insurance stopped covering them. (I now have a thick bite guard for the uppers I wear at night.)

My bottom teeth have now settled to a better position than before braces and InvisAlign, but they are nowhere near straight. I believe part of it is due to extractions which give the teeth some room to move around still. Extractions were common when I had braces. I’ve heard they rarely do them anymore because... the teeth shift!

At any rate, whenever there’s a shift or change in the teeth, it’s going to feel strange. My suggestion, FWIW, would be to ask your dentist for a plastic night retainer rather than the cemented wire. You wear it at night, or any time you’re not eating or playing, and it keeps the teeth straight. The cemented wire takes up too much room in the mouth, IMO.

[LeTromboniste]

As i look at pictures, inside/outside seems to be the only distinction. The mechanism by which they apply force to the teeth is the same.


braces...



permanent retainer...

Quite simply, no.

There are pretty fundamental differences. The only way they're the same is they both involve teeth and a wire. That's about it.

For starters, what you see between the teeth and the wire in the two pictures is completely different. In the bottom picture, those are just glue spots (pretty badly drawn here, they're no where as big or as well defined in real life, as the orthodontist will grind away any excess after installing the wire). In the top picture, the clear things on the teeth are actually little boxes that can be opened. Here they're some kind of transparent material (I'm guessing some kind of polymer, don't know) but they're very often metal.

Retainers usually only link your 6 front teeth. Braces can cover any number of teeth (and will cover a varying number throughout the length of the treatment)

The wire itself is different. In retainers, it's a thick , wound, rigid wire that is pre-shaped to a plaster copy of your teeth. All it does is keep its shape, thus making your teeth stay where they are. In braces, the wire changes throughout the treatment. The treatment plan involves a number of different wires of different types and rigidity, used in succession, each with its own effect on your dentition, with the orthodontist constantly adjusting things. Sometimes the wire will link all your teeth, sometimes some teeth will be left out of the chain for a while. Sometimes it's a thin round wire, sometimes it's a rectangular or square cross-section wire, sometimes it's wound. It can have torque or not, apply more or less force inward or outward, etc. When necessary they'll replace some boxes to different ones that have little hooks, which they'll use to attach semi-permanent elastics and springs or have you use disposable elastics at certain times of the day, in order to bring certain teeth closer or further from each other.

[Posaunus]

The nomenclature is jargony.

In normal usage a "brace" would be something that tries to keep something in place rather than trying to move something from where it is. I wonder how that happened. I'd blame the British but this stuff appears to be an American invention.

As i look at pictures, inside/outside seems to be the only distinction. The mechanism by which they apply force to the teeth is the same.

Maximilien has it right. Let's call these "terms of art" rather than "jargony." Braces are a perfectly acceptable use of this word. (See Merriam-Webster or your favorite dictionary.)

Orthodontic "braces" are the system of metal or plastic "brackets" which are temporarily bonded (glued) to the teeth, and metal wires (which are affixed to slots in the brackets). Braces are intended to slowly move the misaligned teeth into optimal positions and angles. The wires (pre-formed or carefully bent and manipulated by the orthodontist) exert force on the brackets (and hence the teeth) to achieve this movement, which occurs over a period of months or even years. This system works because the teeth are more or less mobile in the jaws, and can be gradually pushed around to new positions.

A dental "retainer" is any sort of appliance intended to hold the teeth in place (often used after orthodontic braces are removed). They can be removable or bonded in place - either inside or outside. But they are not intended to provide moving force to the teeth.

[CharlieB]

S Is this just something that I will adjust to or should I have them removed?

Been there.
Orthodontics moves teeth to an "unnatural" position from where the body wants them to be.
If a retaining device is not used, the teeth will tend to return to their original locations.
Wire glued to the backs of the teeth is one method.
At first, the retainer wire feels like a giant obstruction, and playing is affected.
Given some time, the tongue and associated muscle memory will adjust itself to the wire's presence.
Plastic retainers worn at night are another option.
They are awkward, and strict discipline is necessary to use them every single night.

[EriKon]

Got my permanent retainers today. Playing a show right now and it feels really weird as it is exactly placed where I usually articulate. Will see how that develops, but I think I will get used to it.