Heavy .508 bore

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:17 pm

I have a Yamaha 891z and a King 3b. Both are great, but very light.
Does anyone know of another .508 bore horn that is heavier and plays with a little more power?

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:32 pm

3b silver sonic

DaveAshley · Post by **DaveAshley** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:42 pm

Lawler 3 with .025 gauge bell stem and bronze flare would be my idea of a "power" setup.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:30 pm

891Z is not a light horn, IMO. It's on the heavier side of the spectrum.

Shires set up a certain way will be even heavier/more legit.

3BSS is best of both worlds IMO, like Trevor said.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:44 pm

Selmer Bolero, Olds Recording

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:46 pm

Thanks for chiming in gentlemen.

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:02 pm

I have the Edwards .508 model that Steve Weist plays - sorry, can't remember the bell # off the top of my head, but the info is on their website. Really nice "solid" small bore horn that can play a lot of situations, including orchestra or band concerts with a mix of classical and jazz style charts.

Jim Scott

Fidbone · Post by **Fidbone** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:09 am

I have both the Yamaha 891Z and a 70's King 3B and would say neither of them are particularly light.
As for power, both horns have it in spades with the right mouthpiece set up!
Maybe you should move up a size if you disagree?

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:17 am

3BFSS is even heavier, fwiw

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:23 am

Not a 0.508, but the Conn "Razorbell" 44H has a rather thick bell even if it has no bell rim.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:53 am

A good old Bach 16M.....good enough for the LA studio players who have to be super versatile.

Or, even smaller horns that play 'heavy' when needed....Bach 12, Bach 6, Bach 8

The Bach 16 duo-bore might be what you need, though.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:38 am

If you'd consider 0.500" also, how about a Conn 48H?

At one point I had a 48H and a 3BSS for side-by-side comparison, in my opinion they could both take a lot of air and deliver a powerful sound. If I didn't know the specs, I really doubt I could have picked out one as being 0.500" and the other 0.508". At lower dynamics, I preferred the greater subtlety of the 3BSS, but for the heavy stuff, a 48h at significnatly lower cost than a 3BSS is an interesting option.

Wasn't there also a King Tempo (the one with curved brace) with 8" nickel-silver bell that should also be compatible with a 3B slide?

Vegastokc · Post by **Vegastokc** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:38 am

Anything made by Reynolds pre-1963. Those things are solid.
Although they jump right over .508 so the choice is .500 or .520.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:36 am

Some eyes will roll, but I suggest the BAC Paseo or Paseo W6 as well - .500/.508 dual. I'm a powerful player and that thing takes it all and then some. Beautiful even tone across the whole range too. Worth trying if you're somewhere you can get your hands on one.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:39 am

If it's just in terms of physical weight...a 3BF (or a 3BFSS as mentioned) will definitely add some. Anything with a cut bell too, should add weight and stability at power, so a Lawler is a great shout there (J Landress in NYC has one on sale for $2200 just now) or you could even consider trying to get a cut bell for the 3B, since parts for that are plentiful enough!

JerryY · Post by **JerryY** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:49 am

Ditto on the Lawler 3!

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:05 pm

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:53 am A good old Bach 16M.....good enough for the LA studio players who have to be super versatile.

Or, even smaller horns that play 'heavy' when needed....Bach 12, Bach 6, Bach 8

The Bach 16 duo-bore might be what you need, though.

Some Bachs are like that... But I wouldn't characterize most of them that way. They're "darker," more colorful maybe, but my 16M isn't heavier playing than my rather light 3B/F.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:29 pm

Yes.... depends on the Bach horn....and type of slide for sure.

I used to have a Bach 12 with a brass slide that could hold it's own in any legit situation (well...for shows, quintets, pit use, even Mozart Requiem)

And now if I put the 16 brass duo-bore slide on my 16M bell, it's an entirely different beast than with my nickel light 16M slide. Almost 'too heavy' and not as nimble as the straight bore 16M slide. (...and heavy as in I can barely hold it upright...kills my hand and tendons after awhile!)

In fairness, I only know Bachs and Kings in small bores. Used to have a HW White 2B that I'd kill to get hold of again! Could play anything with that horn.....damn. Was great for Broadway pit show parts too.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:40 pm

We can't forget that different mouthpieces bring out different characteristics of any horn too!

Like, some mouthpiece that only brings out low/mid overtone colors and has a real heavy blank that really holds your chops together when playing loud could make your small bore horn sound pretty 'heavy' compared to sticking a lightweight mouthpiece in it.

Remember the Denis Wick 'tone-booster'? It worked as advertised when used on a Wick mouthpiece. It could make a Wick 7C behave totally differently and turn your horn into a different animal.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:51 pm

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:29 pm Yes.... depends on the Bach horn....and type of slide for sure.

I used to have a Bach 12 with a brass slide that could hold it's own in any legit situation (well...for shows, quintets, pit use, even Mozart Requiem)

I'm borrowing a 12 at the moment that is almost... too legit. Massive sound, plays larger and louder than some 36s I have played. I actually can't imagine playing it in a big band setting... or much of anything else, actually. They're out there! But I wouldn't bet on finding one, even looking for it.

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:08 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:23 am Not a 0.508, but the Conn "Razorbell" 44H has a rather thick bell even if it has no bell rim.

This is offtopic, but is that the same as a Vocabell?

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:38 pm

BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:08 pm
BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:23 am Not a 0.508, but the Conn "Razorbell" 44H has a rather thick bell even if it has no bell rim.
This is offtopic, but is that the same as a Vocabell?

That is the Vocabell. It has the nickname "Razorbell" because it has no bell rim.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:11 pm

Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:40 pm We can't forget that different mouthpieces bring out different characteristics of any horn too!

Like, some mouthpiece that only brings out low/mid overtone colors and has a real heavy blank that really holds your chops together when playing loud could make your small bore horn sound pretty 'heavy' compared to sticking a lightweight mouthpiece in it.

Remember the Denis Wick 'tone-booster'? It worked as advertised when used on a Wick mouthpiece. It could make a Wick 7C behave totally differently and turn your horn into a different animal.

This post reminded me. Why not try wrapping some of the self-adhesive (no glue) stretchy medical tape tightly around the throat of the bell? After a few wraps you can put some coins or metal pegs in and wrap around those as well. It will effectively give you a heavier bell that plays like a heavy bell, but for less than $10. And it's not permanent.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:03 pm

Great info, thanks!

spangy · Post by **spangy** » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:31 am

Conn 32h
Dual bore .507-.522 so a tad larger.
Heavy and powerful.

Jimkinkella · Post by **Jimkinkella** » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:26 pm

If heft is your main criteria, then the 3B Silversonic is definitely the way to go unless you want to go custom. I'm sure Lawler or Shires could work something up. Rath does a fairly heavy nickle bell that plays really well, I kind of want one myself.

Oslide · Post by **Oslide** » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:32 pm

I'd second hyperbolica's vote, above, for an Olds Recording (.495/.510).

On TTF there was a thread (unfortunately lost along with large parts of TTF) where RolandJBarber investigated in much detail the loudest trombones available, and an Olds Recording was one of his favorites. Certainly worth a try!

timbone · Post by **timbone** » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:16 pm

Dear Sniffynose- For a new horn you want the Courtois 402T- .508, medium slide with sleeves plays heavier than most, total slide weight 561 grams, outer only is 244. Designed to play with plenty of energy and power!

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:59 am

I`ve had 2 heavy small bores over the years
My last Conn 32H had a really thick bell and the slide was almost cumbersome.
My 1st Bach 12 was the heaviest small horn I`ve ever picked up. But surprisingly nimble.
I loved the sound but it was almost as heavy as my 42BO
Both horns have moved on to homes where they are more appreciated

Trevorspaulding376 · Post by **Trevorspaulding376** » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:04 am

Saw someone mention a courtois, I have the 602 and 430tlr

Not sure either is Heavy but man they are fine horns !! Don’t get the credit or wide known recognition of some of the other brands , I’d definitely try a 402, I love my 2

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:58 am

Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:04 am Saw someone mention a courtois, I have the 602 and 430tlr

Not sure either is Heavy but man they are fine horns !! Don’t get the credit or wide known recognition of some of the other brands , I’d definitely try a 402, I love my 2

I've got the Courtois ac402trr (508 bore) and it's on the light side, but a really, really fine horn.

Massimo69 · Post by **Massimo69** » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:21 am

I found personally havy to play (harder) 3bs all of them... Yamaha never liked the sound... Actually I play and have endorsed by XO and the Fedchock 8 bell model are really easy (the most easy horn for me)... Sound are great but not havy like older... I found a good combination used a old 78h conn bell and a500 light weight slide (5h)a really good combination for me... The Williams 6 burbank for me are the king in the trombone world and I prefere for all around playing...

Andre1966tr · Post by **Andre1966tr** » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:29 am

If you want a powerful sound you will have to practise that...any KIng 3B will do the job, and a mouthpiece that is not too deep.
The trombone of some powerful players:
Gary Valente: KIng 2B SS,
Ray Anderson: Conn 8H, Amrein 9 EL, both large bore horns...now on KIng?
Joseph Bowie with Defunkt: Conn 6H
Frank Rosolino: Conn 6H
Steve Turre: Yamaha large bore
Jay Jay (master of projection and sound): 3B and Yamaha 695 (?)

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:04 am

When I saw Joe Bowie play, he had two horns with him, A straight 4B and a Bach 42BO

Andre1966tr · Post by **Andre1966tr** » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:30 am

Yes, he switched to bigger horns in the 90ies or so...

Andre1966tr · Post by **Andre1966tr** » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:32 am

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:47 pm

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:29 am ...
Gary Valente: KIng 2B SS

Powerful would be an understatement.

Andre1966tr · Post by **Andre1966tr** » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 am

Lol, I saw and heard him in the 90ies in Germany in a little club. With Ed Schuller, Kenny Martin and so on. I took a seat in the back of the club. When they started I wished good luck to the audience in front of his bell. When the second set started there were a lot of free chairs in the first rows, a kind of devasted area..

The other miracle power trombone was Joe Bowie. Defunkt made a soundcheck when we waited outside. About a hour, full energy. And I thought: why do they waste their power for a soundcheck?
Then they started, two hours. Then he made a break and I thought: Okay, they will play three tunes after that and than end of the concert.
They came back on stage and I left the concert after two further hours, exhausted, while they continued to play..
Bowie has a very strange kind of trombone playing (beside his singing and dancing and drinking and playing percussion) but the level of energy is (was) pure magic, I will never forget.

dukesboneman · Post by **dukesboneman** » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:52 am

I saw Joe Bowie at the Bop Shop in Rochester, NY when he was on tour with Kahil El Zabar and the Ethnic Heritage Ensemble. The Band was setting up and I asked the set up guy if Joe Bowie was around, Then went and sat down. A while later he comes walking out in a dashiki and sat down right next to me. We talked for about 20 minutes about his horns, Defunkt, the current tour and Lester. Just a really nice guy and a powerful player

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 am

Was able to hear 'Defunkt' in the mid-80's in Toronto at the old Zanzibar club on Queesn St. Wow....high powered funk with social statement. They were awesome. Elements of jazz, funk, you name it. Loved it. Kim Clark on bass I believe....she could lay it down.

I think Joe Bowie was playing a King 4B when I heard him. It looked bigger than a 3B.

I thought he'd split it open with his playing!

Went back with some earplugs the 2nd night. (We could stand and dance about 10 feet away from the band.)

Macbone1 · Post by **Macbone1** » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 pm

Selmer Bolero is actually a featherweight horn but does have a big sound! I agree that there is a lot of leverage in matching just the right mouthpiece to any horn, to get the most out of it. And if you have something with interchangeable leadpipes, that presents all kinds of cool choices.

For mass and weight, you cannot beat an older Besson. I don't know which model would be .508 bore (I have a .491 and a .523), but shop around for Sovereign or even the old Imperial models. Also the "numbered" series like 8-80, 6-60, etc. Built like TANKS. They sell so cheaply in the US that it's cost effective to do an overhaul if one is needed.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:43 am

Got a ‘73 3B Silversonic and it is meeting the criteria I wanted, thanks for all your input.

I am also playing on a mouthpiece now with a wider inside diameter & bigger throat which is also a factor. Very happy with the mouthpiece change!

modelerdc · Post by **modelerdc** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:33 am

I doubt there's a horn in this bore that you can play louder than a King 3B. The only limitation is the player, all these horns can play louder than our lips can drive them. There's nothing special about the trombone like bells they put on train horns.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:02 am

3BSS is definitely heavier, but not necessarily louder. My yellow 3B played louder than the 2 3BSS I also tried when I bought it. But any 3B can knock walls down like little else can...there's a reason they are loved by salsa players.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:37 pm

Benge 170 bell with a 3b slide anyone? For my tastes it is like a supercharged 3b

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:59 pm

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:37 pm Benge 170 bell with a 3b slide anyone? For my tastes it is like a supercharged 3b

I'd love to get my hands on one.

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:54 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:37 pm Benge 170 bell with a 3b slide anyone? For my tastes it is like a supercharged 3b

Just tested a full Benge 170 setup, but wow did this horn play great. And it sounded huge. Great instrument!

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:15 am

Yeah, for heavy 508, the first thing that comes to mind is the Selmer Bolero, as already mentioned. Something slightly off the beaten path would be the Olds Recording. That probably fits the spirit of what you're asking better, even if its not straight 508. Just remember to use it with a counterweight, otherwise its a little unwieldy. And the 48h also mentioned is another great horn for playing loud, but configured like the more popular 6h.

TromboneMonkey · Post by **TromboneMonkey** » Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:15 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:15 am Something slightly off the beaten path would be the Olds Recording. That probably fits the spirit of what you're asking better, even if its not straight 508.

Hard agree. The Recording is the move here, IMO.

I have to disagree with some of the above posts about the 891 being heavyish. It's much lighter compared to Olds, Shires, Courtois, and many 3bs. It plays lighter too, IMO. Which is not a bad thing.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:39 am

I totally forgot -- the Elliott Mason custom from BAC is .508, extremely heavy, and plays humongous. I don't like the wire thin outer slide hand brace or the steam punk aesthetic, but the thing plays like a monster.