Reversed tuning slide

[havard]

I am considering making some custom work to open up a closed wrap stock Bach 42
How would an open neckpipe and / or reversed tuning slide affect a Bach 42 in term of sound and response?

[JCBone]

I doubt it would make any noticeable difference.

[Burgerbob]

Reverse tuning slide will change things. Open up, maybe not.

What do you not like about the current response?

[Doug Elliott]

Some people like.the effect of reversing it, and others think it ruins it. I had one done, unfortunately I didn't like that horn before or after.

[havard]

Reverse tuning slide will change things. Open up, maybe not.

What do you not like about the current response?

The horn plays quite tight in general .

[havard]

Some people like.the effect of reversing it, and others think it ruins it. I had one done, unfortunately I didn't like that horn before or after.

How did it play after ?

[CheeseTray]

I reversed one once on a straight 42; just for yucks. I didn't notice all that much of a change (- it was an open-blowing bell to begin with). I left it configured that way for a couple of years. Later on, when I wanted to use the bell on a convertible Thayer, I had it flipped back. In this particular instance, the change turned out to be a 'nothing burger.' However, as others often say, "Individually mileage may vary."

Something else to consider: Flipping will prevent you from swapping other main tuning slides in and out. In my opinion, the tuning slide has a big impact on how a Bach bell feels and blows. I've accumulated a pile of 42 tuning slides and specifically matched them with every bell I have. I don't know if the same level of impact of swapping tuning slides is true for other brands/models.

[Burgerbob]

Reverse tuning slide will change things. Open up, maybe not.

What do you not like about the current response?

The horn plays quite tight in general .

With all mouthpieces? Leadpipes? Slides? Valve is well oiled and in good shape? Different non-reversed tuning slides?

There are many roads I would go down before reversing the tuning slide, only because they are easier to check first.

[Posaunus]

"Reversed" tuning slides seem forward to me (more logically designed, with no step decrease in diameter through the tuning slide). These "reversed slides are used in many professional-level trombones (e.g., Conn, King, ...). I presume they are called "reversed" because of the prominence of "standard" tuning slides from manufacturers such as Bach.

In any case, I expect that the manufacturers (mostly) knew what they were doing when the designed their trombones, and I'm reluctant to mess with this detail for what promises to be a potentially small difference. (But then, I'm not a horn tinkerer like some of you!)

[greenbean]

I would expect changing the neckpipe to have a much bigger impact than reversing the tuning slide.

[CheeseTray]

I agree with you Posaunus, in that continued expansion of the bore makes logical sense. Bach's configuration may well have been a manufacturing or fabricating shortcut simply to save time or money. The term 'reversed' is just a description of the action the tech is performing. Nonetheless, Burgerbob's point is true as well. There are lots of variables to tinker with that are less work and effort (and more easily reversible) to open up the blow. Finally, even if the slide configuration defies logic, who knows which (or how much) design idiosyncrasies in any brand contribute to a brand's 'signature sound' or 'feel'...
I own five 42s and, as mentioned above, took the time to hand pick main tuning slides for each of them because to me, it makes such a huge difference.

[Doug Elliott]

The horn plays quite tight in general .

With all mouthpieces? Leadpipes? Slides? Valve is well oiled and in good shape? Different non-reversed tuning slides?

There are many roads I would go down before reversing the tuning slide, only because they are easier to check first.

Totally agree, that's the last thing to consider. There are so many other more likely fixes. Or just find a horn you like... You can't always make lemonade out of a lemon.

===========
Of course continued expansion makes sense, if it was designed around that. But if a horn has been designed to work well in spite of an anomaly like that, "correcting" one thing is likely to make it worse, not better, unless you redesign the whole system. Find a horn you like.

[nbulgarino]

I've played on 42's with this conversion. To be honest, I don't notice that much of a change.

In my experience, the single biggest factor that effects how a Bach 42 plays is the valve; and that's why they had 8 to choose from over time (the regular rotor in the Mt. Vernon era, the new rotor from the corp era to 2012, the new new rotor they started using in 2012, the Hagmann, the Thayer, the K valve, the infinity valve and the Meinlschmidt).

I would have someone look at the horn if you can, or wait until the pandemic is over. Each Bach is unique in its strengths and "areas of need of improvement."

[Bonearzt]

To actually do a "reverse" set up, you would need to have someone fabricate a complete tube that combined the gooseneck AND the inner tuning slide leg with NO gap or break at the rear brace ferrule!
Odable, but not easy!

Otherwise, IF done correctly with no gap between the gooseneck and the inner tube, there can be a slight improvement to a "stuffy" bell....Maybe...

[Kbiggs]

If you want a different neckpipe, Brad Close (brassmedic here on TC) makes an after-market neckpipe for the 42. His website states his neckpipe is a larger diameter than the stock neckpipe, which is the same size as the 36, hence the stuffiness. His website only shows a 42 (no F attachment) neckpipe, but he probably makes a 42-sized neckpipe for the 42B. (If I had the $, I would be tempted to do this on my convertible neckpipe for my 42A-C, but I rarely use the straight horn.)

Another option: When I had my tech (Graham Middleton) work on my horn, he replaced the original Thayer neckpipe with a different one—I believe it was from M/K Drawing and Bending. I had other work done at the same time, so I couldn’t say whether that particular change helped the horn feel better, but it was part of it.

On reverse tuning slides: I believe there are so many other things that can help a “stuffy” Bach besides reversing the tuning slide, which have been mentioned above... de-stressing the solder joints, different leadpipe, different mouthpiece... everything makes a difference.

If it were my horn: I would ask my tech to de-stress the solder joints in the bell section, and change the neckpipe. If you were to replace the valve, then reversing the neckpipe might be a good option. Just my opinion... which will buy you a cup of coffee it you chip in the $2...

[CalgaryTbone]

Bach does offer a reversed tuning slide on the 42 that was the LaRoza model. I remember liking that horn when I tried it at a couple of trombone events (remember those?). He obviously thought that slide made a difference. Like Doug said earlier, it's hard to say that will improve a horn that you're not 100% happy with. Small changes usually make small improvements or small setbacks to how a horn plays. If you're trying to open up the horn, an open wrap and a new leadpipe would be my first two improvements to try.

Jim Scott

[Burgerbob]

Bach does offer a reversed tuning slide on the 42 that was the LaRoza model. I remember liking that horn when I tried it at a couple of trombone events (remember those?). He obviously thought that slide made a difference. Like Doug said earlier, it's hard to say that will improve a horn that you're not 100% happy with. Small changes usually make small improvements or small setbacks to how a horn plays. If you're trying to open up the horn, an open wrap and a new leadpipe would be my first two improvements to try.

Jim Scott

A47 series does have a reverse tuning slide, yes. Interestingly enough they are literally just 42 tuning slides with reverse legs- Benn Hansson built a reverse tuning slide setup for his project 42 that fits the A47 tuning slides perfectly.

[octavposaune]

Hi all,

Bach artisan tuning slides are indeed just a reversed 42 style tuning slides. Bach even kept the bore gap from the tuning slide crook small side to the reversed outer slide tube in place. I like reversed tuning slides on Bach. The resonance is slightly different but the upper register is better IMO. What this does is move where bore gaps are formed. In conventional Bachs (ala all non artisan trombones) the bore gap is closer to the receiver side. In my reversed tuning slide 50 the gaps sometimes are within the tuning slide crook as the inner slide tube protrudes very slightly into the crook when all the way in. One other variable that changes with a standard to reversed construction is that a reversed tuning slide Bach has a smaller overall bore gap than a conventional instrument. On a 36/42 the end of the neckpipe is about .585 bore, then it gaps to something .618 then back done to .593 on the inside diameter of the inner tuning slide leg. I build 42s by tapering existing neckpipes big end up to .593" with a mandrel that has a slow taper and then it blends with the reversed .593" inner. The now moved gap in the system is about .025" at the end of the tuning slide. On 50s its smoother as 36/42 tuning slide go back to less than .593" at the start of the TS crook. 36/42 have a fast taper and start smaller than you expect. When I ball a 42 crook up to .618 or so it radically changes things, both response and intonation. ARTISAN Bach reversed TSs have the same small diameter tuning slide crook dimensions as a 42. Food for thought...

Reversing a Bach 42 tuning slide when using 42 parts actually requires a lathe to bore out a ferrule and some extra outer slide tubing to make a ferrules and spaces. It is hard to get part numbers for the Artisan specific parts at the moment (although not impossible).

Edited for late night brain fog mistakes,

Benn

[havard]

Hi all,

A47 artisan model.Bachs are indeed just a reversed 42 style tuning slides. They even kept the bore gap from the tuning slide crook to the reversed outer slide tube in place. I like reversed tuning slides on Bach. The resonance is slightly different but the upper register is better IMO. What this does is move where bore gaps are formed. In conventional Bachs its closer to the reciever side where the gaps form in my shortened main TS reversed 50, the gap is sometimes within the tuning slide crook as the inner protrudes very slightly into the crook when all the way in. One other variable that changes is that a reversed tuning slide Bach has a smaller gap when done this way than a convential instrument. On a 36/42 the end of the neckpipe is about .585 bore, then it gaps to something .618 then back done to .593 on the inside diameter of the inner tuning slide leg. I build 42s by tapering existing neckpipes big end up to .593" with a mandrel that has a slow taper and then it blends with the reversed .593" inner. The the moved gap in the system is about .025" at the end ot the tuning slide. On 50s its smoother as 36/42 tuning slide go back to less than .593" at the.start of the TS crook. 36/42 have a fast taper and start smaller than you expect. When I ball a 42 crook up to .618 or so it radically changes things. ARTISAN Bach reversed TSs have the shrink down built into them as they use the same TS crook dimensions as a 42. Food for thought...

Then you actually use only excisting parts making the reversed configuration ? No need buying an open neckpipe?

[octavposaune]

Hello all again,

Havard, depending on who wants what I will reuse the small standard neckpipe on 42s and just blend the bore into the reversed tuning slide. However I stock M neckpipes, which however are not a perfect bore match for valve bore (.562") to lower inner tuning slide tube bore (.593). It is a slower taper that starts bigger and ends about the same .585'ish bore at the tuning slide receiver, I have balled out a standard 42 neckpipe but the open neckpipes are not expensive so I just keep some on hand.

The other end of the spectrum is, reversing a tuning slide is going to change things and generally if done correctly will improved somethings on a 42 in particular. That being said the standard choked 42 neckpipe (smallest part in .530) also effects the playing in a way that some players like. Changing from a standard neckpipe to an open produces a more noticeable change in blow in my opinion than reversing a tuning slide. also a good tech will rebuild a Bach tuning slide parallel and the horn to match. Having a tensionless tuning slide can drastically effect the resonance on any trombone, not just Bach, Have it done badly and it could hamper the instrument.

Off to bed, its 0:13 here

Benn

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Changing a Bach 42 to a reversed tuning slide is like any other other custom job. If you ask five different technicians to do a "reversed tuning slide," you will probably get five different physical and acoustical results. My advice to havard is.....talk to an assortment of technicians. If they say something like... "I can switch it, but I don't think it is going to make much of a difference," then the tech is probably going to keep it simple and just change the tuning slide parts. He/she is likely NOT thinking of the entire gooseneck section as part of the project. However, if the tech says, "we can reverse it, but I also recommend these changes as part of the project.... The result should be......" this might be something to consider.

As a player, I like a more "open feel" in my trombones, so the reversed tuning slides I have done on my personal horns have included modification of the entire gooseneck area because of the constrictions that exist on a standard 42 and 42B (Benn already explained a couple of these). Replacing the gooseneck with an M "open" gooseneck is certainly an option. I have found that annealing and opening up a standard 42B gooseneck works well too. As for the straight 42 horn, I highly recommend Brad Close's open goosenecks (he has a few options at brassmedic.com). I have one of his copper goosenecks on my straight 42G (with a reversed tuning slide) and the horn is a BEAST!

Reversing the tuning slide on a Bach 42 is not a simple "flip it and solder it together" job. Without going into too many details.....the parts don't quite match. Thus, it takes a bit of creativity. I use small shims to solve the problem and I try to make the bore graduation very smooth from the gooseneck through the small tuning slide tube. There are other ways that make the construction easier..... fabricating a new ferrule for the top of the gooseneck and/or fabricating a single tube that is the gooseneck and the small inner tuning slide (Eric mentioned this). While these solutions might give you great results, they could be cost prohibitive.

Last thing.....I do not agree with the phrase....."it will not make a difference." I believe everything on the instrument makes a difference. To defend my point, I always ask trombonists to do the following.....

*Play something on your trombone that requires a lot of precise and pointed articulation.
*Remove the rubber bumper at the end of the slide and play the same music. On about 99% of trombones, you should notice that the articulations have a little more clarity and ease. Even that insignificant little rubber bumper has an impact on your instrument.

So....back to the reversed tuning slide. It WILL make a difference in how the trombone plays. It might not be the change that you want, but something will certainly change.

[brassmedic]

If you want a different neckpipe, Brad Close (brassmedic here on TC) makes an after-market neckpipe for the 42. His website states his neckpipe is a larger diameter than the stock neckpipe, which is the same size as the 36, hence the stuffiness. His website only shows a 42 (no F attachment) neckpipe, but he probably makes a 42-sized neckpipe for the 42B. (If I had the $, I would be tempted to do this on my convertible neckpipe for my 42A-C, but I rarely use the straight horn.)

Yes, I could make an oversized neckpipe for 42B, and that is already available from the factory too, I believe. Either way, I think opening up the neck pipe and/or valve is the best way to address a "stuffy" feeling 42. I put a Thayer valve on mine, and the neckpipe that comes with that is considerably more open than the stock 42 neckpipe. I will never go back. It was a good horn when I bought it; now it's a great horn.

[Tbarh]

Hello all again,

Havard, depending on who wants what I will reuse the small standard neckpipe on 42s and just blend the bore into the reversed tuning slide. However I stock M neckpipes, which however are not a perfect bore match for valve bore (.562") to lower inner tuning slide tube bore (.593). It is a slower taper that starts bigger and ends about the same .585'ish bore at the tuning slide receiver, I have balled out a standard 42 neckpipe but the open neckpipes are not expensive so I just keep some on hand.

The other end of the spectrum is, reversing a tuning slide is going to change things and generally if done correctly will improved somethings on a 42 in particular. That being said the standard choked 42 neckpipe (smallest part in .530) also effects the playing in a way that some players like. Changing from a standard neckpipe to an open produces a more noticeable change in blow in my opinion than reversing a tuning slide. also a good tech will rebuild a Bach tuning slide parallel and the horn to match. Having a tensionless tuning slide can drastically effect the resonance on any trombone, not just Bach, Have it done badly and it could hamper the instrument.

Off to bed, its 0:13 here

Benn

Benn, are the M neckpipe the same as a 45B neckpipe?

[octavposaune]

Tbarh, The modern 42M neckpipe is likely the same as the NY era 40B which shared literally NOTHING with the 42B trombones.

45 neckpipes are the same as the 50B. 45s had the .593 bore valve tubing and share the F attachment wrap with a 50B. The tuning slide on a 45 is unique, only shared with the 46 (same horn with a bigger bell and dual bore slide).

Benn

[elmsandr]

Hello all again,

Havard, depending on who wants what I will reuse the small standard neckpipe on 42s and just blend the bore into the reversed tuning slide. However I stock M neckpipes, which however are not a perfect bore match for valve bore (.562") to lower inner tuning slide tube bore (.593). It is a slower taper that starts bigger and ends about the same .585'ish bore at the tuning slide receiver, I have balled out a standard 42 neckpipe but the open neckpipes are not expensive so I just keep some on hand.

The other end of the spectrum is, reversing a tuning slide is going to change things and generally if done correctly will improved somethings on a 42 in particular. That being said the standard choked 42 neckpipe (smallest part in .530) also effects the playing in a way that some players like. Changing from a standard neckpipe to an open produces a more noticeable change in blow in my opinion than reversing a tuning slide. also a good tech will rebuild a Bach tuning slide parallel and the horn to match. Having a tensionless tuning slide can drastically effect the resonance on any trombone, not just Bach, Have it done badly and it could hamper the instrument.

Off to bed, its 0:13 here

Benn

Benn, are the M neckpipe the same as a 45B neckpipe?

The 45B valve, neckpipe, and lower tuning slide legs are just 50B parts. No difference there.

Cheers,
Andy

[modelerdc]

I was once able to compare two Bach 36 bells, one stock and the other with a reversed tuning slide. In double blind tests with another player, neither of us were able to tell by listening or by playing which was which. In theory the reversed tuning slide may be best, but on our Bach 36 it seem to make no difference, and so I'd say it's probably better just to leave this part of the horn stock. Other horns might give different results, but the 36 in my opinion is very optimal as designed.

[bigbandbone]

Anything that creates turbulence in the airstream can adversely affect the way a horn plays. Reverse tuning slides help eliminate some turbulence. A couple of years ago I reversed the tuning slide on my 20H. I also replace the squarish Conn slide crook with a curved King 2B slide crook. And lastly feathered the ends of all male tuning slide tubes and my mouthpiece. I found the changes made a big difference. The horn wasn't stuffy anymore. Intonation improved and it was much easier to get the centered and penetrating sound I prefer in a lead/jazz horn.

[LIBrassCo]

Tbarh, The modern 42M neckpipe is likely the same as the NY era 40B which shared literally NOTHING with the 42B trombones.

45 neckpipes are the same as the 50B. 45s had the .593 bore valve tubing and share the F attachment wrap with a 50B. The tuning slide on a 45 is unique, only shared with the 46 (same horn with a bigger bell and dual bore slide).

Benn

Kind of off topic, but the 40's are really wild. I have a customers 40 here, and unless I'm mistaken its a real large throated bell, 50ish wide tuning slide, 50 sized valve, and a 50 reciever, but came with a .525 slide? Not sure I understand what the goal was here, and certainly would be interested to know more about them.