Small bore ergonomics

[glenp]

I’d like to have a small bore (~.500) horn that is comfortable to play. The problem I have is that almost every small bore horn also has a narrow slide which requires me to push the gooseneck into my neck in order to get the mouthpiece centered on my embouchure. This results in tension which is obviously not good, and it’s not very comfortable.

I’ve seen this mentioned in some other threads, but I didn’t see these options compared and so I wanted to get some feedback on them.

• Bend the mouthpiece shank a few degrees.

• Put a wide crook on a narrow slide.

• Use the Kuhnl & Hoyer Bart Von Lier .512 (according to Steve @ The Horn Guys it has a wide slide)

• Use a medium bore horn with a shallow mouthpiece

My understanding is that putting a wide crook on a narrow slide will change the sound and intonation of the horn. But maybe not too much to be a problem. But the one estimate I received said they’d need to make a custom crook and the job would be $500 or more. Considering I would need to purchase a horn to do this to, maybe I’d be better served by purchasing the Bart Von Lier.

As for the medium bore, most comments I’ve read say that you can make due with it but that it cannot generate the smaller bore sound. So this doesn’t seem ideal to me.

What about bending the mouthpiece shank? What are the drawbacks of that?

What about the Bart Von Lier? Does anyone here have experience with it? What are your likes and dislikes?

Any other thoughts?

[bigbandbone]

I think Jupiter has a student horn that has a goose neck contoured to fit around the neck. Have your repairman order one of those and see if it can be retro-fitted to your horn.
I wanted to do this to my 4H, but I rarely play tenor anymore so it's not worth the trouble.

[spencercarran]

In seriousness, I don't know a great solution. Bending the mouthpiece shank might risk damaging the leadpipe, and would mean you play at a weird angle. If the K&H is comfortable for you to hold and gets a sound you like, that may be the best bet.

[hyperbolica]

There might be two other options, depending on your tastes. There is a Besson, I think the 940 which you might find used. The widest of the normal used small bore horns you frequently see on parade in the US is probably the Olds Recording. I play one of these, and don't mind the slide width. A Conn 78h might be a good compromise. They have a very wide slide, and can be very bright, much moreso than a Bach 36. With a smaller mouthpiece, you can get small bore-ish articulations. You might even have one converted to a 508, or convert a spare slide. They are great horns, aside from the slide width, but not really a small bore.

I did at one time have a 6h slide with a wide 508 crook on it (on a 10h bell). It played a little bigger than the original. I stupidly traded it to someone in France. I got the crook from DJKennedy, and the rumor I heard is that the tooling for that crook is at BAC.

I had this same problem with neck vs slide width, and right now I'm playing the Olds Recording. If you put some padding on the neck pipe, it decreases the discomfort.

I would never bend a mouthpiece. It just screws with everything, and you'd have to do that to every mouthpiece you wanted to use on that horn. Some good mouthpieces like DE stuff I don't think you'd ever successfully bend one of those.

[glenp]

Bending the mouthpiece shank might risk damaging the leadpipe, and would mean you play at a weird angle. If the K&H is comfortable for you to hold and gets a sound you like, that may be the best bet.

Yes the weird angle part bothers me. I would be worried about the change in mechanics of my right arm. Might look weird too, though that’s not the highest importance.

I’ve been leaning toward the K&H but I can’t seem to find one I can try before buying. They’re not very common and I live in a trombone desert, if you catch my drift. That’s why I’m trying to explore my options before jumping in.

[Pre59]

Have you contacted K+H directly for the width dimensions of their smaller horns? The .512 may be a bigger jump than you really need, especially if their .500 is the same width.

[Neo Bri]

Seems like adjusting the angle of the bell section and slide to an obtuse angle (default 90, but maybe try 120 or so) might help.

[glenp]

There is a Besson, I think the 940 which you might find used. The widest of the normal used small bore horns you frequently see on parade in the US is probably the Olds Recording. I play one of these, and don't mind the slide width. A Conn 78h might be a good compromise. They have a very wide slide, and can be very bright, much moreso than a Bach 36. With a smaller mouthpiece, you can get small bore-ish articulations. You might even have one converted to a 508, or convert a spare slide. They are great horns, aside from the slide width, but not really a small bore.

I did at one time have a 6h slide with a wide 508 crook on it (on a 10h bell). It played a little bigger than the original. I stupidly traded it to someone in France. I got the crook from DJKennedy, and the rumor I heard is that the tooling for that crook is at BAC.

Ahh yes, the Besson 940. I had forgotten about that one too. There’s one at Dillon that looks to be in decent condition albeit with acid bleed around the bell rim. That’s a definite possibility.

I didn’t find any olds recordings at stores with return policies. But I’ll keep looking.

I did hear the story about how the tooling to make wide crooks got tied up when BAC acquired Kanstul. Too bad about that. Hope DJ is able to work that situation out.

Good point on bending the mouthpiece. I use a DE piece on my large bore and would probably do the same on the small bore.

[glenp]

Have you contacted K+H directly for the width dimensions of their smaller horns? The .512 may be a bigger jump than you really need, especially if their .500 is the same width.

I have not, but would definitely do so before making a purchase.

[glenp]

Seems like adjusting the angle of the bell section and slide to an obtuse angle (default 90, but maybe try 120 or so) might help.

I’ve tried with a King 2B and my daughters YSL-354 and it didn’t make a discernible difference. I suppose there might be some other horns that it could help with; it depends on the angle of the gooseneck/etc.

However, if I rotate the horn when I play it so that the top and bottom tubes are nearly coplanar to the floor, that does help. But it’s quite awkward.

[BGuttman]

I can't measure it now, but I think my Conn 40H (0.500" bore, TIS) has a wider reach than many other similar bore horns. I know your problem and have had to deal with it for small bores myself. I've successfully used the wider dihedral angle approach on mine.

[ithinknot]

Re mouthpiece bending (and bell/slide angle) it depends what the exact fit issue is.

If it's purely lateral - ie your neck is just too wide to get the mouthpiece to center - then bending shanks means offsetting the whole horn at a left-right angle to your face, with the slide moving diagonally, in which case things may get pretty weird pretty quickly.

Doing it properly involves bending the minimum necessary angle around the largest radius possible to minimize ovalizing, and using a thick morse taper receiver/sleeve - ideally reamed out slightly beyond the usual .475" stopping point - to protect the shank and keep things completely round where they're going to contact the leadpipe.) But obviously it limits choice, it won't work on some blank designs, and if you play the same piece bent and unbent back to back it's not going to Spark Joy.

But you're not having to find a compromise for a horn you already own, so why bother with any of that?

The hundred$ you'd spend getting a Wide Glide or other custom crook fitted (with uncertain outcome) might also go a long way towards a trip to Dillon or similar where you could not only find a horn that fits you, but choose one you specifically like.

(Also, shopping is fun - though maybe not for a few months yet - and if you tried them in person you might find that a 36 or 78H with a shallower mouthpiece suits your musical intentions just fine.)

[EOlson9]

What about the Getzen 3508? I remember looking at that when I bought my King 3B a couple of years ago, and that horn has a (seemingly) much wider slide than the King, which wasn't to my liking but maybe may suit your needs?

[Doug Elliott]

Since you play on my mouthpieces, contact me. I may be able to send you a bent shank. Maybe not the ideal solution, but you can try it.

[BGuttman]

A bent shank may not be such a bad idea. Davis Shuman had a trombone with a bend at the slide/bell connection with a similarly bent leadpipe. With the slide going off to the right, you may find it easier to play, which was the basic idea behind Shuman's instrument. Did look a bit odd, though.

[SwissTbone]

I just measured the slide width of the Kühnl & Hoyer Bart van Lier 500 I have here.

https://swisstbone.com/kuhnl-hoyer-bart-van-lier-500/

At 80mm it's the same width as a Rath r4f slide I have at hand too.

According to that list Matt compiled that's pretty much as wide as it gets with small bores:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10924

[TheBoneRanger]

I've been through this, and tried most of what the OP is suggesting.

I attempted to make a medium bore horn (Bach 36) work, for a few years, but ultimately couldn't get close enough to the classic small bore sound that I was after.

I had my tech bend a Bach 6.5a a few degrees to suit. Frankly, I'm surprised how well it worked, and it cured the ergonomics. I keep this around for trying other horns from time to time. Definitely the first option you should explore.

Ultimately, I went with a significantly more complex option. I purchased a nickel Wide Glide crook from Benn Hansson (does anyone still make these?) and had my Bach 16m slide rebuilt to suit. I had the leadpipe pulled while I was at it, and trimmed some length out of the tuning slide/bell section to bring the pitch up a little.

This, for me, has been a terrific solution. It solved the ergonomics, and I can now plug in any mouthpiece (or leadpipe) that I want.

The key is that the crook is the correct bore size for the horn. I think some are under the impression that techs are just putting on crooks from large bore horns. The Wide Glide crook adds a little extra tubing (and different radius) to the slide, of course, and changes the feel of the slide in the hand, but the bore size is correct for the horn. It plays great, sounds right, and has enabled me to forget ergonomics and just play. I've had other, more experienced small bore players try my horn, and they've been largely impressed by the result.

Andrew

[Burgerbob]

The Wide Glide die has been lost, as far as I know. There may be a few completed ones sitting around but they won't be made.

[Shumanbean]

I've got the same problem with my big neck.

Quite by coincidence, I own a mid-1940's King 2-B bell that's been modified with a 2B+ slide taper (.500 bore), mated to a lightweight King .500 slide. I bought the bell solely for that purpose, but while he was working on it, the tech pointed out that the neck pipe on the bell section has the strangest bend and the bell angle is slightly pronounced because of it, and that one of the braces needed more length. So the tech installed a brace modification.

I don't play it all that often, and never thought about it, but after I read your post, I took another look at it, and I think someone with the same problem may have bent the neck pipe to suit. Even it it didn't happen that way, it fits neatly around my big neck.

[heinzgries]

perhabs bend like this

[greenbean]

I second the recommendation for a Getzen 3508. Red or yellow brass variants. .500/.508-bore. The slide is quite wide.

And there was one for sale somewhere... Here or FB, maybe.

[tbonesullivan]

For me, I hold the slide more parallel to the ground, and increase the angle between the slide and bell section. I only really need to do this on my 3B and Alto.

[Arrowhead]

What .500 bore horns have you already tried?
The Edwards .500 horns have a fairly wide slide from the factory, from what I recall.
The Conn 6H has decent width.
Although not a .500 bore, you could try the Olds Recording.

[glenp]

Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies. There were a few innovative ideas that I had not thought of. Like bending the tube where the slide and bell connect, and the gooseneck (though that one looks pretty odd).

Since you play on my mouthpieces, contact me. I may be able to send you a bent shank. Maybe not the ideal solution, but you can try it.

Thanks Doug! I'll send you an email when I'm ready to try it out.

I just measured the slide width of the Kühnl & Hoyer Bart van Lier 500 I have here.

https://swisstbone.com/kuhnl-hoyer-bart-van-lier-500/

At 80mm it's the same width as a Rath r4f slide I have at hand too.

Thanks! That helps a lot.

[quiethorn]

Apparently small bore ergonomics are why Roswell Rudd played with an up-turned bell back in the day. People thought he was trying to copy Dizzy on trombone. In reality, he was just experimenting with bending things out of whack so he could get the mouthpiece centered on his face. Later in his life, he switch to a Bach 36 partially for the wider slide.

[bellend]

Having suffered with this problem for years I can highly recommend trying the Besson 940 .

I have over the years tried all sorts of things including custom made crooks and the wideglide which all altered the blow of horn and usually not in a great way. I used a Yellow Brass Bach 36 with a nickel slide that was a great horn for a few years but ultimately, it's just not quite the right noise.

The Besson is the only factory made medium bore horn with a wide slide which is the same width as a Bach 36.
They are lightweight construction similar to a King 2B+ and blow really well having been designed in the main by Gene Smith who was lead trombone with Woody Herman. I have three of these horns and would definitely say go for the Yellow Brass bell ones as they blow much better than the Red Brass version.

I have also blown the Bart van Lier .508 horn years ago when the ITF was in Maastricht in Holland.
A friend and fellow member on here , Fidbone suggested I try it and we were both really impressed with the way it blew it was a really nice horn!. From memory, the slide was a little wider than most smaller horns but not as wide as the Besson but the problem you might have is finding one to try unless you can get one sale of return ?


Good luck!!

BellEnd

[Doug Elliott]

ITF was in Utrecht, not Maastricht. I was playing an Atlantic crossing big band cruise on the Norway, just before it, and stayed over for the ITF before flying home.

The 36 slide width is nice and comfortable, I agree.

[glenp]

Having suffered with this problem for years I can highly recommend trying the Besson 940 .

Thanks! I've seen several recommendations for the Besson 940, so I might go that route. Unfortunately, whatever I get I'll more than likely have to order it since we don't have many options in my area.

[bellend]

ITF was in Utrecht, not Maastricht. I was playing an Atlantic crossing big band cruise on the Norway, just before it, and stayed over for the ITF before flying home.

The 36 slide width is nice and comfortable, I agree.

Your quite correct Doug it was Utrecht ,must have been having a senior moment when I wrote that post.

BellEnd

[Vegasbound]

Having suffered with this problem for years I can highly recommend trying the Besson 940 .

Thanks! I've seen several recommendations for the Besson 940, so I might go that route. Unfortunately, whatever I get I'll more than likely have to order it since we don't have many options in my area.

Dillon's appear to have a yellow bell 940 on their website

[glenp]

Dillon's appear to have a yellow bell 940 on their website

Yeah I saw that! But I’ve got to slow down my spending for a little while. I’ve just spent quite a bit on recording equipment, and I had Brad Close rebuild the wrap of an Elkhart Bach 42G with an Instrument Innovation rotor and the slide Dr has one of my slides.

[bigbandbone]

Apparently small bore ergonomics are why Roswell Rudd played with an up-turned bell back in the day. People thought he was trying to copy Dizzy on trombone. In reality, he was just experimenting with bending things out of whack so he could get the mouthpiece centered on his face. Later in his life, he switch to a Bach 36 partially for the wider slide.

Do you have any pictures of just his horn? I'd love to see it.

[biggiesmalls]

I played a BVL .512 GLT for a couple of years and really loved it:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16266

Feel free to PM me with questions.

[quiethorn]

Apparently small bore ergonomics are why Roswell Rudd played with an up-turned bell back in the day. People thought he was trying to copy Dizzy on trombone. In reality, he was just experimenting with bending things out of whack so he could get the mouthpiece centered on his face. Later in his life, he switch to a Bach 36 partially for the wider slide.

Do you have any pictures of just his horn? I'd love to see it.

No, I just found that pic Googling around after remembering him talk about this in an interview. Definitely a whacky looking horn. There's are probably more if you Google.

[Doug Elliott]

Looks like he plays on the left, as I do.
I saw Roswell play live at least twice and I don't remember him having a horn like that, but I don't think I even noticed what horn he was playing.

I have a Davis Shuman small bore with the extremely bent neckpipe, that I intended to check out at one time, but I have not spent any time playing it... it's .485 bore and I really prefer .500

[BGuttman]

...
I have a Davis Shuman small bore with the extremely bent neckpipe, that I intended to check out at one time, but I have not spent any time playing it... it's .485 bore and I really prefer .500

Shuman's rationale for that instrument was for a different ergonomic problem. He figured that your right arm works better going off to the right rather than straight out. Interesting concept, but I've never been able to test it on one of his trombones. Doug Yeo recommended a similar fix by shifting your body to the left but pulling your head back straight (sort of playing the trombone by looking to the right). I did try this and it seems to help getting those really long trigger positions.

[Doug Elliott]

True but you don't have to play it that way.. without using the little curved mouthpiece bit, the slide is completely normal. The gooseneck has a weird kink in it. I'll have to get it out and try it again.

[glenp]

I decided to get a new K&H Bart Van Lier .500. I contacted K&H and they measured both the .500 and .512 between the top and bottom tubes, and they were 78.5 mm.

The horn arrived from The Horn Guys on Saturday. I'm very happy with it. The slide has just the right amount of extra width to be comfortable without being dramatically different than other small bore horns. In other words, it doesn't look like a Bach 42.

As for my thoughts on this horn, I'm extremely happy with it. I think K&H are under represented and under valued and it was an incredible deal. It has a wonderful slide, a velvety smooth sound that brightens up nicely when pushed, and doesn't get ugly (for me at least). The sound is very malleable, with good projection, and it slots well. I keep finding myself looking forward to playing it at the end of the day.

I'm also going to throw out a bone for the Horn Guys. Steve was really great to deal with, they had an excellent price on this horn, shipping was very fast, and it arrived in perfect condition.