Sackbut - how should it be played?

[henrikbe]

So, I just bought a sackbut (Leuchter tenor, including Heide mouthpiece). However, as it turns out, I don't really know how to play this thing... I mean I can play it like I play my regular trombone, and with some practice maybe even get a decent sound, but are there any particular things I should be aware of? Things like embouchure, air flow etc, which need to change from what I'm used to from the (large bore) trombone, in order to get a "correct" (whatever that means) sackbut sound?

I've been trying Google, but little luck. Surprisingly, I also didn't find much on this forum. I should probably get the Wolff book, and maybe some lessons at some point, but are there any general, obvious things, techniques etc, that trombone players need to adjust when converting to sackbut?

[JCBone]

There is a member here who is a real expert on this (forgot his name) Maybe he can help.

[Posaunus]

Lessons strongly recommended.

Airflow: about 1/3 of what you put through a trombone.

A proper sackbut mouthpiece will be very different than your large-bore tenor piece, so may require modifying your embouchure.

Playing style will of course be different too - you will be playing an older type of music that has a different esthetic.

Make sure you are comfortable with tenor clef - that's where much of your music will be.

Enjoy!

[LeTromboniste]

Hello! In terms of embouchure, there are differences but how much you have to think about them will vary a lot from one player to the next. A lot of it is forced by the very different mouthpiece and horn construction, and on the very different sound and musical concepts. The music we play on sackbut is so different, in so many ways...in my experience, assuming that you have solid technical foundations coming from modern trombone, it's better to work on the musical side of things, and the purely physical aspects of the embouchure will follow more or less naturally to adapt to the different requirements.

I'm sending you a PM as well so you can check there!

[LeTromboniste]

One of the major differences in playing is the approach to articulations. Historical mouthpieces are much more responsive to a more subtle palette of articulations, for starters. And what was considered good tonguing is fairly well documented. As a general rule, nothing is ever slurred, and any note approached by leap is usually articulated with a "t" tongue; stepwise motion in 8th notes and faster values are usually paired using a "Tere" tonguing (the "re" may or may not be a natural motion for you depending on your mother language. It is a backwards flick of the tongue that hits around the same spot as a "d" but with the tongue moving backwards instead of forwards, which makes tereteretere work for very fast playing as you get two articulations for each forward movement of the tongue). Eventually very fast notes can be articulated using doodle tonguing (which is described already in 1584). The paired tonguing can also often be used on quarter notes. A lot of the music we play is texted, and the articulation will thus also vary in function of the text. Modern double tonguing is to be avoided except in very extreme cases justified by the affect of the piece.
The idea of square-shaped notes that are as identical as possible would not have been appealing to musicians of that time, so are generally to be avoided.

Beyond such overtly technical differences, a lot of the techniques and skills to learn relate to the repertoire itself, getting used to the musical language, reading the notation, understanding the idioms, learning to ornament music beyond the printed notes.

[imsevimse]

One of the major differences in playing is the approach to articulations. Historical mouthpieces are much more responsive to a more subtle palette of ...

Great post Maximilian

I have a Monke which I think is just an "almost" sacbut. It came with several mouthpieces. My friend who is great at old instruments said the mouthpiece I myself found tge worst was tge one that sounded most authentic. It sure takes a lot of listening in the first place so you know what to listen for. I have not played it for a while, but this got me inspired.

Can you recommend a source at Internet were I can hear what is considered to be a good sound from a suqbut?

/Tom

[LeTromboniste]

I have a Monke which I think is just an "almost" sacbut. It came with several mouthpieces.

Is your instrument a Christopher Monke or Josef Monke? The latter are German-made, and from what I've see more in the "posaunenchor" peashooter style, with sackbut-ish dimensions but modern trombone construction. I don't think I've played one. Christopher Monke was a British cornett maker, his sackbuts were actually made by Frank Tomes, who made relatively historical instruments. The tenors are often hard to play, in part because many of them are copied after an original that was probably a cut down bass. He added a leapipe and they are almost impossible to play without it. I tried a bass that was very, very good. Usually he made them with a somewhat more historical construction (flat, hinged stays, loose connections).

My friend who is great at old instruments said the mouthpiece I myself found tge worst was tge one that sounded most authentic. It sure takes a lot of listening in the first place so you know what to listen for. I have not played it for a while, but this got me inspired.

I had the same experience when I started. Whenever we played with colleagues from the other university, who had a bunch of mouthpieces in their cases, we'd be relieved to borrow their extras that were more modern, more comfortable to play and we though sounded better. I only later found out that what we had ourselves was much better, we just had to get used to it and learn how to use them (plus the instruments we had were particularly hard to play).

Can you recommend a source at Internet were I can hear what is considered to be a good sound from a suqbut?

/Tom

Generally I would advise more recent recordings. There are many stellar recordings from the 80s, but the field of early music being one of constant research, there is also a lot of earlier recordings that are outdated. I would recommend looking up some of the following performers (of course this is not an exhaustive list):

Ensembles:
Concerto Palatino
His Majesty's Sackbutts and Cornetts (especially more recent recordings)
Dark Horse Consort
I Fedeli
Quicksilver
Caecilia Consort
Oltremontano
Les Cornets Noirs
¡Sacabuche! (there will be a new CD released very soon)
The English Cornett and Sackbut Ensemble

Individual players:
Catherine Motuz
Simen van Mechelen
Adam Woolf
Greg Ingles
Win Becu

One recording recommendation in particular: one of the best trombone CDs ever in my opinion and one that any trombonist should own is Fede e Amor (featuring Simen van Mechelen and Catherine Motuz along with countertenor Alex Potter), it's also available on YouTube and Spotify. It's all 18th century Viennese music with solo alto voice and solo trombone(s). Some of the sweetest sackbut playing you'll hear anywhere.

[LeTromboniste]

Following this thread and some questions I get by PM, I was thinking we could have a Questions and Answers session on Zoom where those who are interested could ask any question they have about the instrument itself, its history, how it's different than a modern trombone or played differently, techniques we use, learning the instrument, style of playing, ornamentation, trills, early epertoire 1450-1800, issues of pitch level and tuning, etc.

Would that be of any interest?

[SwissTbone]

Yep

[Arthurtwoshedsjackson]

Liza Malamut is also a good resource. Check out their web site for publications, including their dissertation (there is a link to download). Knows their stuff.

http://www.lizamalamut.com/

[LeTromboniste]

Liza Malamut is also a good resource. Check out their web site for publications, including their dissertation (there is a link to download). Knows their stuff.

http://www.lizamalamut.com/

Yes, Liza is fantastic!

[Posaunus]

Following this thread and some questions I get by PM, I was thinking we could have a Questions and Answers session on Zoom where those who are interested could ask any question they have about the instrument itself, its history, how it's different than a modern trombone or played differently, techniques we use, learning the instrument, style of playing, ornamentation, trills, early epertoire 1450-1800, issues of pitch level and tuning, etc.

Would that be of any interest?

Yes.

[NorthernEuph]

I would love to take part in something like that!

[BGuttman]

Can some of us just audit? I think I have zero chance of actually playing sackbut, but I'm interested in how it's done.

[LeTromboniste]

Can some of us just audit? I think I have zero chance of actually playing sackbut, but I'm interested in how it's done.

I was thinking it would be for anyone who has questions (or answers to provide) and is interested in knowing and sharing, not only people who play. A lot of that knowledge is relevant for our understanding of our instruments as modern trombone players (if only for when we play earlier repertoire). I'm sure you'd have some good questions!

[Kbiggs]

Count me in.

[silverslideman]

I'd be interested in joining a Zoom session.

[VJOFan]

To offer a description from a recent listening experience...

We had, I think, a Portland classical music radio station streaming and my wife asked if "that is a trombone?"

As I listened I was left wondering myself.

It was definitely a slide instrument. My thought was that it sounded how a small bore slide euphonium would sound or a slightly more conical horn.

It was gentle, pretty, rounded, oh so smooth and with a colour that, although related to what I think of as a trombone sound was not really like a trombone.

Modern trombones (or the way people play them makes it so they) have developed an insistent edge that, even as a trombonist, makes me tire of listening after 5 or 10 minutes.

The sackbut I heard had more of the feel that a gut stringed guitar or violin would give. It was just a nice sound to have around. Not at all pushy or squared off.

[andym]

I'd be interested in listening to a session. Given time zone differences, it would be great if it was recorded and posted somewhere for people to listen if they can't make the original time.

[silverslideman]

Lessons, yes, a good sackbut teacher, yes. I would add group playing with a good HIP MD, if you can. For me, a few iterations of the Newark (Nottinghamshire!) Early Music Course were invaluable: over a long weekend Adam Woolf & Jamie Savan guided us towards an ensemble sound & phrasing, with many individual tips along the way. In normal times we now have several short study courses like this in various parts of Europe, but I only know of one or two in North America.

[LeTromboniste]

Lessons, yes, a good sackbut teacher, yes. I would add group playing with a good HIP MD, if you can. For me, a few iterations of the Newark (Nottinghamshire!) Early Music Course were invaluable: over a long weekend Adam Woolf & Jamie Savan guided us towards an ensemble sound & phrasing, with many individual tips along the way. In normal times we now have several short study courses like this in various parts of Europe, but I only know of one or two in North America.

I agree, ensemble playing is really important, since that is most of our repertoire, and workshops are a great place to gain stylistic understanding. There are quite a few. I the US they are mostly in the summer, in Europe there are some the rest of the year too.

[henrikbe]

Following this thread and some questions I get by PM, I was thinking we could have a Questions and Answers session on Zoom where those who are interested could ask any question they have about the instrument itself, its history, how it's different than a modern trombone or played differently, techniques we use, learning the instrument, style of playing, ornamentation, trills, early epertoire 1450-1800, issues of pitch level and tuning, etc.

Would that be of any interest?

Yes, this sounds very interesting!!

[MrHCinDE]

+1, I’d be very interested in this.

I have an alto sackbut (and old Boosey and Hawkes) and a tenor hackbut (converted B&H small-bore tenor) which were sort of an impulse purchase driven by COVID boredom.

I’d love to get some pointers of where to start with learning these instruments with a hope of actually playing them in a group some day.