maintaining a smooth working carbon fibre slide

[kenton]

I'm considering putting a carbon fibre outer slide on my bass trombone. The makers say that it needs to be kept dry to stay working well.

So, I'm looking for players who have a carbon fibre slide. How finicky is it? Is it a problem keeping it working well in a session?

Thanks
Kenton

[elmsandr]

Not too finicky. Just keep it mostly clean. A swab every now and then will keep it fine. You will notice that when it gets dirty and sticky it will take force to move it. However, if you grab a regular slide you will realize that even dirty it takes less force than moving a normal slide.

Definitely an adjustment, but keeping it clean has been no more difficult than a normal slide.

Cheers,
Andy

[timothy42b]

My pBone mini slide does a similar thing. Dry it's not bad, but as soon as breath condenses or spit accumulates there is a suction feeling drag. I yank the slide off and dry the inner slide about every three minutes. Of course with the shorter alto slides that's not difficult, it would be hard on a full size.

[kenton]

That was the source of my question. I have a pbone, and keeping the slide working smoothly is annoying.

[JCBone]

I was never able to get my pbone slide working. I guess I didn't properly wear it in and now it's pretty much stuck like this for ever.

[kenton]

Butler talks about using BERP biolube lubricant on the stockings. And, also using pure Carnauba wax on the inner and outer slides. I might try those options on the pbone first and see how effective it is.

[bigbandbone]

What does Butler suggest in regaurs to maintaining their slides?

[Posaunus]

Please don't confuse carbon fiber slides (from Butler) with pBone slides, which are plastic (definitely NOT carbon fiber), with brass stockings. They're both black and non-metallic, but the similarity stops there.

They may require different lubrication.

[JCBone]

Please don't confuse carbon fiber slides (from Butler) with pBone slides, which are plastic (definitely NOT carbon fiber), with brass stockings. They're both black and non-metallic, but the similarity stops there.

They may require different lubrication.

I'm pretty sure that pbone inners are carbon fiber but I may be wrong.

[Peacemate]

I'm pretty sure that pbone inners are carbon fiber but I may be wrong.

Pbones have plastic outers with what seems to be raw brass stockings over the plastic inner tubes.

Butler trombones use stock inner slides, so they really aren't that similar.

[kenton]

Here is Butler's commentary on maintenance: http://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=1008

I realize that the pbone and the carbon fibre handslides are not using the same materials, but, they both are using metal sleeves in a non metal outer tube. So, it seems at least plausible that a lubrication that works for one, might have a chance with the other. Additionally, the BERP product is supposed to work well with a standard slide.

In any case, it is worth experimenting.

[timothy42b]

pBone slide crooks and braces are injection molded plastic.

But inner and outer slides are fiber reinforced resin, same basic principle as the carbon fiber.

Wax on the brass stocking is critical because otherwise it quickly corrodes and drags. You do have to occasionally polish. If you did that when new (i didn't) you could probably avoid some problems. Mine also had a sharp edge on the brass that need careful filing.

[2bobone]

I have a Butler C-12 bass and have tried all of Dave Butler's suggestions for keeping the slide working at its best. I've tried carnuba wax, Berp slide lube and even Yamasnot. The trick is to keep ANY moisture from accumulating. I decided to outfit my slide with a "JoyKey" which allows almost zero accumulation of water in the slide because it is in a constant state of draining. An occasional wipe with a toweled rod and it has excellent action. The disadvantage is the water constantly spraying off the end of the slide which could alienate players who are unfortunate enough to be in front of you. Andrew Joy, inventor of the "JoyKey" makes an "SOB" which is nothing more than a rubber ball which fits over the "JoyKey" that collects the water for later disposal. A great solution !

[Posaunus]

Wow. Lots of confusion here. As I understand it:

Butler slides: CFRP [carbon fiber reinforced polymer composite] outer slides;
Chrome-plated nickel-silver inner slides (just like your brass trombone);

pBone and Tromba slides: ABS plastic outer slides;
Fiberglass-reinforced (?) ABS resin inner slides, with raw brass stockings.
Definitely not carbon fiber, which is a different animal than fiberglass, and much more expensive to fabricate.

So … the lubrication requirements are necessarily somewhat different:
Butler: Carbon fiber sliding over nickel-plated brass tubes and stockings
pBone / Tromba: ABS plastic sliding over raw brass stockings / fiberglass plastic tubes

It's clear from picking up any of these slides - they feel VERY different!

Butler recommends carnauba wax for their slides.
For pBone, it makes sense to at least smooth and wax the raw brass stockings.

After that, Butler recommends the BERP lubricant (only on the stockings) and no water for their slides.
pBone lube recommendations have been variable; don't know their latest.
I've never seen a silky smooth pBone slide.

[timothy42b]

So the entire Butler inner is metal? didn't know that.

pBone slides can be pretty slick right after waxing but for me it doesn't last. List member Phillip is very good at it though, his work well. They get sticky with moisture, it feels like suction. But the light weight makes them usable anyway.

[kenton]

I tried BERP on my Pbone last night. It seems to work well initially, After a couple of songs, it started dragging just a bit. Wiping the inner slide with just my hand seemed to work pretty well. And, I also tried putting a rod with cloth on the end, and running that down the hand slide and that also seemed to work well. I don't currently have any carnauba wax (but it is on order). I'm curious how it will work on the pbone. I would be nice to have a swabbing rod like bassoon players have to keep handy.

I understand that B.A,C also makes carbon fibre slides. Has anyone had any experience with their product?

[elmsandr]

So the entire Butler inner is metal? didn't know that.

It is an entirely conventional inner slide. Mine happens to be interchangeable with my Bach 50 inners.

Returning to topic.. I have used both the Bio-lube provided and a trombontine/silicone drops that I use on normal horns. After a few cleanings and dryings, I forget what is even on it now... Not playing a ton during the pandemic, but if I pick this up and it is dragging, I just hit the outer with the swab, put it back on and keep playing. When it builds up a bunch of water, drain the water key, maybe swab it out, and keep going. This is to say I do not find it a particularly finicky piece of equipment. It did take several cleanings to get rid of some scratchiness, but it now seems to require less maintenance than my brass slides.

Cheers,
Andy

[kenton]

Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.

[Posaunus]

Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.

Slide-O-Mix towel sheath?

[kenton]

Thanks for the recommendation! It is now on order.

[elmsandr]

Andy, as a side question, what do you use as a swab? At the moment, all I have around here is a cleaning rod. And, it seems that something more like a bassoon swab would work better.

Have both a standard cleaning rod with cheesecloth and the cleaning rod with the slideomix sock style thing that came with the slide from Butler. Grab whichever one is closer.

This thing really does just seem to want to be clean and dry.

Cheers,
Andy

[kenton]

I figured I better report back in. I ordered some carnauba & Bees wax paste. Working on the Pbone, I polished up the metal sleeves and then I put the wax on the inner outer slide and the outside inner slide. The results are impressive. The slide is faster than it has ever been and unlike before when I might get through one song before it started dragging, I played through 4 songs and is still fine.

[Fairweather]

What about silicon spray on stockings and shafts both?

[kenton]

I've not tried that. If you do, please report your findings.

[Reedman1]

Butler’s recommendation of a thin coat of Berp BioLube plus a drop or two either Yamaha slide lube or the small bottle of Slide-O-Mix works very well. Personally, I always wipe down the inners and dry every part of the slide when I’m finished playing for the day, so the slide starts dry. Just regularly emptying the slide via the water key keeps me going.

[krstbone]

Having used a carbon fiber slide for 2 years now, let me pass on what I have learned. At first I was somewhat frustrated. It seemed that I was having to do like my woodwind friends and swab out my slide between numbers; what a pain. Any water on the slide really slowed it down and made it next to horrible.
I learned the secret finally. I apply a very thin coat of Berb’s BioLube on just the stockings (as recommended) then I only use three drops of the Slide-o-Mix Rapid Comfort in each of the outer tubes. This keeps me from having to swab the slide out. I keep a cleaner slide than I have in decades and prepare the slide for each rehearsal or concert. What I think is happening is that this technique creates a hydro seal against condensation wicking up the slide. The carbon fiber slide wants absolute dryness! Be prepared to evacuate your water every chance you get. I have not used a water bottle in two years (all the flute players are happy I don’t spray them anymore).
I was pleased enough to have David Butler custom build a slide for my 1947 Olds standard dual bore jazz horn. I feel that my technique and speed have improved with the carbon fiber slides. Both horns slot well, and I have no complaints from any of my contractors.

[TromBoyer]

I just tried BERP bio lube, then a drop of the small bottle of Slide-o-mix on my DaCarbo slide. Initially, the slide is like bottled lightning! I’ll report back after a couple of days (I normally clean my slide & apply a thin coat of BERP before playing every time)

[MvdHeuvel]

I have a .500 slide with carbon fiber outers that I've almost stopped using because I got so tired of having to wipe the inners every other song during gigs. I came across this thread and got the BERP bio lube to try and see if it would help. It's a night and day difference! I wish I knew about this sooner!

[TromboneLAB]

Water is the nemesis of carbon fiber. The surface tension of water and the surface of carbon fiber create a bad combination that makes the slide “grabby” when played for very long dry. The hot moist air dogs the tubes and inevitably water accumulates.

I’ve experimented with using an alcohol spritz while playing, instead of water, since alcohol evaporates quickly and takes all moisture with it when it does. Manufacturers use an alcohol bath on new instruments to ensure they ship completely dry…

While the alcohol spritz is an excellent trick during playing, I find the trick with carbon fiber is to swab with rubbing alcohol. CF manufacturers suggest this as the most preferred solution for cleaning and I find it works very well on the CF slides I build and play.

Before I played carbon fiber slides, I was a firm believer in conditioning my tubes—letting a certain amount of lubricant residue accumulate, creating a good film of lubricant over time—and therefore wouldn’t clean or swab them too often.

With carbon fiber, I find this approach to be detrimental. Lubricant residue is problematic and I end up trying to use the least amount of lubricant possible and swabbing my outer slide with an alcohol cleaning swab every few weeks. This keeps things working very well.

I take a clean swab wrapped on my cleaning rod and spritz it with alcohol (don’t dip the swab in alcohol) then swab each tube as normal and allow to dry. Usually just 30 seconds to dry us enough, unless you’ve dipped the swab in alcohol. That puts a lot of alcohol in the slide and makes it harder to swab and makes it take longer to dry.

I usually only wipe down the inner tubes every other swabbing so I maintain a small, base-level of lubricant on the inners.

I find that the purple bottle Yama-snot works best, and Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort would be a good second choice.

Recently, I’ve been trying Monster Oils Trombone Slide Cream and it works very well too! They call it “cream,” but it’s more like a thicker version of Yama-Snot. This allows you to put a small amount on and sorta massage it into the tubes like Trombotine. It’s also very durable and doesn’t break down as fast as other lubricants. But a little goes a long way. Too much and the residue slows the slide and prompts cleaning.

I’ve also tried Carnuba Wax (food grade) and water. This is what the lubricant Butler sells for his slides is. His lubricant is sold in small containers for $8 I think, but you can buy a lifetime supply tub of Carnuba on Amazon for not much more. If you use this lubricant, I rub some into a soft, lint free cloth and then wipe down the inner tubes vigorously with it. Then lightly spritz with water while playing. This works, but I’ve found Yama-Snot lubricates and dispels water much better. I also like that Yama-Snot can be used quite well without water.

Basically, the less water you need to use to lubricate the slide the better. Then cleaning regularly is a must. There is a learning curve to it, but it’s a pretty quick and easy process.

If you’ve got more questions about Carbon Fiber send me a message or check out my Facebook page @ TromboneLAB. I try to post a variety of information there.