Courtois Challenger II 420 BH

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:22 am

Hi all,

I can find no information about the Courtois Challenger II 420BH, other than it's made by Courtois (duh) and has a Hagmann.

I member sent me a message offering to sell this, but I know nothing about it.

I do know some folks diss the older Courtois, and I don't know when the Challenger II came and went.

And, considering, I don't want to buy an instrument that, if I don't like, I can't sell because of missing information.

Anything you can offer will be helpful. Thanks!

ttf_Sue · Post by **ttf_Sue** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:17 am

Yeah, it's really tough to find info on Courtois trombones, especially reviews. I have a catalog that I picked up 2 or 3 years ago, and here are the specs on the Legend AC420BH: (no Challengers in this catalog, maybe the Legend name replaced the Challenger?)
(Quote)
bell 215 mm (8.464) - bore 13.89 mm (.547)
brass outer slide - brass leadpipe
open wrap F-attachment Hagmann
"free-flow" system

Option:
gold brass bell AC420BHR
super lightweight slide, brass outer tubes,
and sterling silver leadpipe AC420MBH
super lightweight slide, sterling silver lead pipe,
and gold brass bell AC420MBHR

I have a Courtois 360 Challenger II, and really like it. Definitely comparable to a good Bach 36.
And a dual-rotor independent bass, too, not sure of the model (Opera 500? I replaced the 10 1/2" bell with a 9 1/2" Shires) it has been discontinued. I love this bass. I have owned and sold a Bach 50B30, and an Osmun bell/single Thayer with an Edwards slide. But I'll never part with this Courtois.

And I have two former students who purchased Courtois 420 Challengers from Peninsula Music several years ago for a song, because they were being discontinued. 42B copies - and both played like VERY good 42B's. No quality issues with any of them, either.
That's my $.02.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:27 am

Quote from: Sue on Sep 27, 2014, 10:17AMYeah, it's really tough to find info on Courtois trombones, especially reviews. I have a catalog that I picked up 2 or 3 years ago, and here are the specs on the Legend AC420BH: (no Challengers in this catalog, maybe the Legend name replaced the Challenger?)
(Quote)
bell 215 mm (8.464) - bore 13.89 mm (.547)
brass outer slide - brass leadpipe
open wrap F-attachment Hagmann
"free-flow" system

Option:
gold brass bell AC420BHR
super lightweight slide, brass outer tubes,
and sterling silver leadpipe AC420MBH
super lightweight slide, sterling silver lead pipe,
and gold brass bell AC420MBHR

I have a Courtois 360 Challenger II, and really like it. Definitely comparable to a good Bach 36.
And a dual-rotor independent bass, too, not sure of the model (Opera 500? I replaced the 10 1/2" bell with a 9 1/2" Shires) it has been discontinued. I love this bass. I have owned and sold a Bach 50B30, and an Osmun bell/single Thayer with an Edwards slide. But I'll never part with this Courtois.

And I have two former students who purchased Courtois 420 Challengers from Peninsula Music several years ago for a song, because they were being discontinued. 42B copies - and both played like VERY good 42B's. No quality issues with any of them, either.
That's my $.02.
Wow! Thank you very much, Sue, for taking the time to write all the info out. If anyone else has info it would be great. For now, hopefully the info you provided will help others, too.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:58 am

Hi;

Let me share with you what little I know about Courtois tenor trombones. In the 80's, they made a Conn style instrument called the 300B Prestige and a 300E the Elegance. Michel Beqquet worked on the design. Very good instrument, but frightfully expensive. Courtois at that time was handled in the US by Leblanc. .551 bore, 8 3/4" bell, lightweight slide, closed wrap. Rose, gold and nickel silver bells available.

Then they tried to make a Bach style horn. That was the Challenger series. Their first attempt. Played a lot like a Bach. They were pretty decent horns (imho). Biggest difference was the slide. The Courtois slides are really quite good. Same issues with marketing. Expensive, not well known, not much money sunk into marketing. the horn did not sell well. Nothing wrong with the horn.

Finally, they introduced the 420 Legend. This also shares much with a Bach, but there were upgrades, These are the instruments that are starting to get some play in the US. The MET section uses Courtois

Short version: a Challenger II 420 is a Bach style instrument, well made, that could be used for any performance situation. It is not an "off" brand or an intermediate horn. Courtois is now part of the Buffet group (Buffet, Keilwerth, Besson, B&S, Meinl Weston, Scherzer). Their offices are in Jacksonville, and they have a showroom in New Yor. Also, they are closing the Courtois factory in March, and moving production to Germany.

Hope this helps

ttf_timbone · Post by **ttf_timbone** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:27 am

Hello To everyone! Just for clarity the Challenger series was born out of the attempt to "challenge" Bach during the period when Triumph Adler (Germany investment group with JA Musik) were the sole importers of Courtois to the US. Since that time (1980's-2001) Courtois has been purchased by the Buffet Group (2006). The Leblanc years left an indelible impression of an instrument that was very expensive. In those days Holton had a good trombone marketed as a close third to Bach and Conn (remember before there was Edwards and Shires). They has sole possession of Courtois and rather compete against the brand, they jacked up the pricing and stuck it in the closet, WITH the exception of the alto trombone and flugelhorns. I have had that theory confirmed by folks that worked for Vito Leblanc at that time. Yes, Michel Becquet was involved as well as Enrique Crespo for the German influence. Now if you fast forward to 2014, B&S, which is now part of the Buffet Group, is making the challenger trumpets for the very same reason. It is interesting to note that Vincent Bach studied the French Besson "Brevete" trumpet and also learned a great amount from B&S before WWII, and of course was not allowed in the country during and after the war. There is photo documentation at the B&S factory of Vincent Bach's visits.

Today, The Courtois Challenger range has been replaced by the "Legend" range; same basic models, although you should know that all the raw materials for the instruments comes from a foundry in Germany, so the quality of metal is very high, if not the best (same foundry that the German Car manufacturers use). You should know about the flipbook catalogs, and websites.

http://www.flipbooks.buffet-group.com/ http://www.a-courtois.com/en/

Let me know if you are interested in finding instruments here in the US. Unfortunately, Buffet Group mainly has a dealer base of school band dealers which are not savvy to the trombone world. A few are but things have changed in the retail marketplace.

Players like the MET guys use the horns because they love the sound and feel; a trombone with a full harmonic overtone range and an instrument that allows the player to sound the way they want and not the instrument dictating to the player. And that's just for starters.

Let me know if I can help in any way!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:29 pm

"Today, The Courtois Challenger range has been replaced by the "Legend" range; same basic models, although you should know that all the raw materials for the instruments comes from a foundry in Germany, so the quality of metal is very high, if not the best (same foundry that the German Car manufacturers use)."

"Let me know if I can help in any way! "

Hi timbone,

You certainly can help me! Are you a rep for Courtois? I have a couple questions regarding a 420MBH Challenger II. Where was the alloy for the Challenger II series sourced from? Germany? Elsewhere? The slide on the Challenger II 420MBH appears in photos to have a wider slide with a dual radius crook vs. The current Legend and its single radius crook. True or false? Thanks for your response.

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ttf_timbone · Post by **ttf_timbone** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:32 am

Yes you could call me a rep I guess. First off, the 420MBH is actually a lightweight slide(no extrusions or sleeves) and a soldered sterling silver leadpipe. Any time you see an "M" in the nomenclature it means the lightweight slide and silver leadpipe. The brass that Courtois uses has been German for a long time. I would say the end crook is not quite a dual radius, but leans that way, in other words it is not as pronounced as a Bach radius.

ttf_timbone · Post by **ttf_timbone** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:32 am

Yes you could call me a rep I guess. First off, the 420MBH is actually a lightweight slide(no extrusions or sleeves) and a soldered sterling silver leadpipe. Any time you see an "M" in the nomenclature it means the lightweight slide and silver leadpipe. The brass that Courtois uses has been German for a long time. I would say the end crook is not quite a dual radius, but leans that way, in other words it is not as pronounced as a Bach radius.