Coffee and The Trombone

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:07 pm

Alright, I'm not sure if this was the best place to ask. But long ago when I first started my undergrad, my teacher made the comment "there are three things you put through the horn, air, water and coffee" (I should add he regularly has coffee while playing and even has a coffee maker in our studio). Now 4 years later, regularly drinking a black cup of coffee during my playing I'm beginning to wonder if it is actively damaging my horn. Not a fan of a latte so that doesn't matter to me, but should I continue to drink a cup while playing? I usually clean my horn twice weekly so it's not like it's sitting but are there any long lasting negative effects?

Thanks!

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:49 pm

The pH of coffee is usually about 5, making it somewhat more acidic than your regular saliva (or water, of course). It definitely adds some extra wear to the inside of the horn. Not as bad as if you were drinking orange juice right before playing.

My typical procedure is to brush teeth before playing, only drink water during sessions.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:06 pm

Coffee is some of the worst. I cleaned a friend's horn in grad school and got what I can only describe as a "slug" of congealed coffee out of the upper slide tube.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:29 pm

Black coffee has very little stuff dissolved. Add cream or sugar and you have a nice mold growth medium.

Your weekly clean should be OK with black coffee (or black tea) but anything added toi it is asking for trouble.

Doubler · Post by **Doubler** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:35 pm

It is my understanding that hydration is important to maintaining and optimizing your playing. Consuming diuretics such as coffee combats this hydration. I'll go out on a limb and say that discontinuing your use of coffee will benefit you and your horn.

Doubler · Post by **Doubler** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:39 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:49 pm The pH of coffee is usually about 5, making it somewhat more acidic than your regular saliva (or water, of course). It definitely adds some extra wear to the inside of the horn. Not as bad as if you were drinking orange juice right before playing.

My typical procedure is to brush teeth before playing, only drink water during sessions.

I floss and brush before playing, and I rarely have to clean the inside of my horns at all. Of course, using Herco Spitballs on a weekly basis is also a considerable factor in keeping my horns spotless inside.

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:40 pm

Not trying to be a contrarian, but I believe both are necessary.

Doubler · Post by **Doubler** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:02 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:40 pm Not trying to be a contrarian, but I believe both are necessary.

Well, that all Depends....

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:10 pm

"Long ago when I started my undergrad."

Good one!

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:39 pm

I drink coffee when i play too (though it'siced). I used to drink tea when i played but needed to cut back. I drimk a lot of water when i play too. I need the caffine to keep me focused. Because i drink so much i try to bath my horn once a month.

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:15 am

Just checked my leadpipe because i drink coffee fairly regularly, its pretty gross. Not the worst ive seen, but gave me a reason to clean the whole things

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 am

Barkeeper's Friend (liquid) does a good job of removing coffee stains without being too abrasive. I'm not really sure how abrasive it is, so I'd rinse and re-wash thoroughly after it.

mbtrombone · Post by **mbtrombone** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:32 am

I drink coffee (up to 64oz on a horrible set of days), tea (up to 64oz), and tons of water (64oz min a day). It is all bad for the horn, even the water in the end.

Personally I think it just means you need to clean the horn more, or be ok with the fact that things might corrode long term. I tend to eat through horns where I touch on the outside very quickly, so I am not overly concerned with the interior other than wiping out the inside every couple of days (I use one of the slide-o-mix rods with the snake attachment). The inside of my horns are actually much better than the outsides...

There is a famous trombonist out there and they recommend drinking a little Sprite before playing to combat dry mouth, so it all kind of depends on what you need to play well, which will dictate your cleaning, and maintenance routine.

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am

You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:26 pm

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...

Lol.

Doubler · Post by **Doubler** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:40 pm

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...

A clean gun is a happy gun. Same for a horn, plus a shiny horn is a happy horn!

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:46 am

This is an interesting thread ... I only drink water while playing my horns and don't eat at all.
That is experience from 40 years of playing brass music ... and having found partial french fries after a heavy weekend and some drinks. THAT was gross.
Since I dry out horns at the end of each day with the great brass saver tool .... I think I am fine with possible corrosion.
All I wonder recently is the green residue on my slide which I totally clean once a week. Just got the tip from a friend to only clean the inner slide and relubricate. Keep the outer slide as it is and clean that one only once a month.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:09 am

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...

THIS MY TROMBONE. THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE. WITHOUT ME MY TROMBONE IS USELESS. WITHOUT MY TROMBONE I AM USELESS.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:06 pm

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...

CLP!

I saw a guy at my first unit "clean" his rifle until all the bluing was gone. He turned it in and then they DXed it.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:46 am All I wonder recently is the green residue on my slide which I totally clean once a week. Just got the tip from a friend to only clean the inner slide and relubricate. Keep the outer slide as it is and clean that one only once a month.

This is a rather bad approach, according to my tech. What do you think is the origin of the green residue? It certainly doesn't come from the chrome-plated inner slide! It is debris and corrosion products from your slowly deteriorating / disintegrating OUTER slide.

It's very important to keep your outer slide clean and dry. My tech suggests (and I comply) cleaning and drying the inside of the outer slide every day before storing. For this I also use the H-W Brass-Saver (inner and outer slides), followed by the Slide-O-Mix towel sheath. Air out both inner and outer slides a while so they're dead dry; then put the trombone to bed. Your slides will last a long time if you do this and keep them aligned and dent-free.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:26 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm It's very important to keep your outer slide clean and dry. My tech suggests (and I comply) cleaning and drying the inside of the outer slide every day before storing. For this I also use the H-W Brass-Saver (inner and outer slides), followed by the Slide-O-Mix towel sheath. Air out both inner and outer slides a while so they're dead dry; then put the trombone to bed. Your slides will last a long time if you do this and keep them aligned and dent-free.

Thanks Posaunus, those were my initial thoughts, too.
Since the "once-a-month-the-outer-slide-only" statement came from a professional trombonist, I was of course open to such an experience report, although wondering in a matter of material sciences.
I will keep my regular routine.

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:43 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:06 pm
ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:26 am You will all hate me for this, but I totally clean my horn twice a day. Hey drill sergeant, I fired my weapon this morning! What should I do? Clean it, troop. Hey drill sergeant, I didn't fire my weapon at all today. What should I do? Clean it, troop!

Is there even a thing as too clean? I don't think so...
CLP!

I saw a guy at my first unit "clean" his rifle until all the bluing was gone. He turned it in and then they DXed it.

Hah! I doubt gun oil would be useful on trombone maintenance. But there are similarities between cleaning a trombone and cleaning a rifle. The equipment is even similar, although I seriously would warn against using a barrel brush in a slide! But the basic concepts are the same: cleanliness and lubrication. In the case of a rifle, dirt can cause a malfunction. In the case of a trombone, how clean do you want something that comes in contact with your face and possibly your lungs! When you take in a big breath between phrases, does any of the air inside the slide come along for the ride? Anyone care to take a swab of the inside of their not-very-clean slide and do a culture in a petri dish? You might be horrified at a lab analysis.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:19 am

I use a shot gun rod to clean my slide.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:18 pm

Back in the days of black powder, there was a saying that "the sun never sets on a dirty gun"; black powder leaves quite a bit of residue and, while said residue isn't corrosive in and of itself, it does attract and retain moisture. If you didn't keep it clean, it wouldn't last - and that would cost you money, and could cost you your life.

The situation isn't as dire with trombones, but there are definite parallels.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:46 am

Eating and drinking anything but water while playing any instrument is a bad idea. But do what you will.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 am

I just drink straight slideomix. It works wonders for the horn!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:26 am

Everclear might leave your horn cleaner if you play it after drinking...

Hold a lighter up the the bell while playing. That'll clean it out real fast

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 am

Probably helps keep me free of COVID as well!

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:12 am

MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 am I just drink straight slideomix. It works wonders for the horn!

Two-part version, or Rapid Comfort?

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:18 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:12 am
MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 am I just drink straight slideomix. It works wonders for the horn!
Two-part version, or Rapid Comfort?

Two part, naturally! It’s like a beer and a whisky chaser.

jbeatenbough · Post by **jbeatenbough** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:56 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 am I just drink straight slideomix. It works wonders for the horn!

That is a good idea...I might have to change to that... I've been using SuperSlick as creamer in my coffee for a while - so I never have to lube my slide.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:01 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 am Probably helps keep me free of COVID as well!

It makes you too slippery for the virus to latch onto.

robcat2075 · Post by **robcat2075** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:14 am

While coffee connoisseurs consider any metal implements to be undesirable in the preparation of coffee the small bit of scientific investigation into the effect of coffee on metal suggests that it inhibits corrosion.

This study considers coffee on steel but perhaps the fundamentals apply to other metals.

Inhibitory action of aqueous coffee ground extracts on the corrosion of carbon steel in HCl solution

Abstract

The effects of aqueous extracts of spent coffee grounds on the corrosion of carbon steel in a 1 mol L−1 HCl were examined. Two methods of extraction were studied: decoction and infusion. The inhibition efficiency of C-steel in 1 mol L−1 HCl increased as the extract concentration and temperature increased. The coffee extracts acted as a mixed-type inhibitor with predominant cathodic effectiveness. In this study, the adsorption process of components of spent coffee grounds extracts obeyed the Langmuir adsorption isotherm. The chlorogenic acids isolated do not seem to explain the corrosion inhibition observed during the use of the coffee extracts.

I can't imagine how this did not win the Ig-Noble prize in its year.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:06 am

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:14 am While coffee connoisseurs consider any metal implements to be undesirable in the preparation of coffee the small bit of scientific investigation into the effect of coffee on metal suggests suggests that it inhibits corrosion.

This study considers coffee on steel but perhaps the fundamentals apply to other metals.

Inhibitory action of aqueous coffee ground extracts on the corrosion of carbon steel in HCl solution

Abstract

The effects of aqueous extracts of spent coffee grounds on the corrosion of carbon steel in a 1 mol L−1 HCl were examined. Two methods of extraction were studied: decoction and infusion. The inhibition efficiency of C-steel in 1 mol L−1 HCl increased as the extract concentration and temperature increased. The coffee extracts acted as a mixed-type inhibitor with predominant cathodic effectiveness. In this study, the adsorption process of components of spent coffee grounds extracts obeyed the Langmuir adsorption isotherm. The chlorogenic acids isolated do not seem to explain the corrosion inhibition observed during the use of the coffee extracts.
I can't imagine how this did not win the Ig-Noble prize in its year.

Sadly, the Iggies were not given this year due to COVID. I agree that it deserves the prize in Chemistry.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:26 pm

I suppose the question would be if any of us flood our trombones with a 1 mol L - 1 HCl solution.

I'd also be curious as what constitutes "spent" coffee grounds, and what the researcher thinks is the mechanism that results in the observed effect.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:42 pm

One feature of coffee grounds is an oil. My guess is that the oil forms a boundary layer on the metal parts that inhibits attack by acids. Note that coffee is also slightly acidic (I don't know which acid it is, but it's a nice weakly ionized organic acid). Weak organic acids don't attack metals like strong mineral acids like hydrochloric or sulfuric. Coca-cola is a special case since it contains phosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid acts as a protective layer on copper alloys. But the sugar in Coke will be a great medium for bacterial growth.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:35 pm

I think I'll just stick to water or black coffee at intermission breaks, and cleaning and thoroughly drying my trombone at day's end!

BurckhardtS · Post by **BurckhardtS** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:45 am

I love coffee... but don't drink it while I am playing.

For what it's worth, coffee is shown to have mild anti inflammatory effects. Coffee earlier in the day can sometimes make my chops feel maybe a little more loose. On the other hand though, most people don't drink nearly the amount of water they should to stay adequately hydrated, and being dehydrated is going to make your chops feel inconsistent and sticky anyway.

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:51 am

http://collections.bso.org/digital/coll ... es/id/423/

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:13 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:51 am http://collections.bso.org/digital/coll ... es/id/423/

After his retirement from the BSO, John Coffey ran a small music store around the corner from Symphony Hall / across the street from New England Conservatory of Music. In 1972, I needed an F-attachment trombone, and was referred to Mr. Coffey by Ron Barron. He invited me in and sent me upstairs to a small room where he told me to try anything in the store. (All Bachs and Conns then.) After giving them all a test drive, I selected a wonderful Conn 88H (hands-down outplayed the Bach 42Bs), which I still have and treasure. He then said that since I was a friend of Ron Barron, he would give me the courtesy of a "professional discount." The list price then for an 88H was $600. I purchased mine for $360 (+ 3% sales tax)! I still have the receipt. I'll never part with this trombone.

John Coffey was a wonderful and generous man, beloved by those who knew him.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:17 pm

Coffey was the bass trombonist of the BSO. Until his death, it seems every serious trombonist in New England took lessons from him. I moved to the Boston area a couple of years after his death so I never had a chance to meet him, but everybody around here tells funny stories about him.

SimmonsTrombone · Post by **SimmonsTrombone** » Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:25 am

FWIW - cheap instant coffee with some Arm & Hammer washing soda make a good film developer. Add a little vitamin C and it’s more consistent.

Coffee is a strange substance.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:16 am

$360 for a brand new 88H...

Wonder what the elkies used to cost new?

Wonder what Lindberg paid for his Minnick, for that matter, too.

The inflation chart says it costs about the same now as it did back then, but dang.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:35 am

SimmonsTrombone wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:25 am FWIW - cheap instant coffee with some Arm & Hammer washing soda make a good film developer. Add a little vitamin C and it’s more consistent.

Coffee is a strange substance.

You'll never get me to part with my metol-hydroquinone

Incidentally, Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate) was used as a pH buffer in photographic developer solutions. It's pretty alkaline.

spoink47 · Post by **spoink47** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:16 am

Howdy, pals
Just bumped into this thread and I kinda have an issue with coffee, but I don't think another thread is needed. I'm just here for your advice

So, cleaning the instrument after coffee is a complete mess I agree, but my problem is slightly another.
have anyone noticed a lack of breath after having a cup of coffee? Or am I the only one? I just feel like my playing is slightly different after I drink coffee (yeah, strange thing, I know). I tried to research and read some coffee related articles (like this). Still, I don't know if it's a health issue or just a coffee effect.

Looking forward to your replies! Thanks

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:49 am

Coffee will raise your blood pressure. The effect is different for different people, but high blood pressure can result in problems in breath control.

Are you normally hypertensive (i.e. have high blood pressure)?

Does Decaf make less of an effect?

btone · Post by **btone** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:25 pm

"Back in the days of black powder, there was a saying that "the sun never sets on a dirty gun"; black powder leaves quite a bit of residue and, while said residue isn't corrosive in and of itself, it does attract and retain moisture. If you didn't keep it clean, it wouldn't last - and that would cost you money, and could cost you your life."

I'm sorry I didn't see that anybody responded to this quote so I'll add my 2 cents. Black powder is corrosive and the residue has to be cleaned before you put your weapon up for the day, so the saying referenced is correct. Smokeless powder came on the scene about 1898 but corrosive mercuric primers were still prevalent for a couple more decades. You are unlikely to see bore corrosion damage in .22 rifles made after 1920, in my experience. A lot of ammunition from World War II still used corrosive primers; Berdan primers exhibit 2 flash holes inside the spent casing. Boxer primed ammo (1 flash hole) is not inherently corrosive.

christinavid · Post by **christinavid** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:44 am

I am a student and a huge coffee lover. For me this increases brainpower – The antioxidants in coffee, in moderation, have been linked to improved memory, and even preventing diseases like dementia. Improved focus – For many college students, caffeine keeps them alert for lectures and study time.

Lastbone · Post by **Lastbone** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:04 am

Eh... coffee, beer, whatever. Just remember that if you manage to wear out your horn, you are entitled to get a new one. My Elkhart bass has been suffering with me for 49 years now, and is still hanging in there.

And, in reply to one of the queries, a 73H cost $385 in 1973.

robcat2075 · Post by **robcat2075** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:09 pm

.

Peggy Lee sings "Black Coffee"

Frank Sinatra, The Coffee Song

This sounds like one of those things Mitch Miller put him up to...

Garbage, Cup of Coffee

J.S. Bach Coffee Cantata