Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:18 am

Quote from: bonedude on Jul 10, 2014, 11:15AMDo you guys anticipate speeding up production in the future? 4 to 6 weeks for an unthreaded brass leadpipe is a lot longer than the other manufacturers I have gone through.

I am actually glad this question came up.

Production is a complex system to manage. When someone orders an item, it generally goes into production in the order it was received. In the case of your leadpipe, it'll be put in the queue with the rest of the leadpipes and when that batch is made, you'll get yours. If there are a lot of leadpipes in the queue ahead of your order, it takes longer to fulfill. Sometimes we'll have something in stock, but a leadpipe without threads is a custom order, so it gets made from scratch.

With so many custom options and so much handwork, the lead time will be longer than a singular specification item with less handwork involved.

We are always looking for new ways to become more efficient and speed up production. We are also committed to quality. Such is the balance we need to strike. Maybe keeping in mind that that 4-6 weeks gets you a completely custom item, hand built from scratch, just for you will help explain the lead time.

Best,
Ben

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:28 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Apr 10, 2014, 12:59PMI can answer that one, to some degree. If you are familiar with different brass gauges in the same alloy and what the different weights actually do, it's easy. The Shires bells generally play, sound and and feel almost one weight heavier than how they are marked. So the M bells feel a just a little bit heavy, the LW bells feel pretty mainstream...maybe a little quicker and brighter than say a stock Elkhart Conn reg. weight bell...and the "reg. weight" bells have some interesting mass to them. Your results may differ, but that's what I have noticed over years of trying bells at the factory, at conventions and at home. When I started playing Shires horns about 12 years ago I liked the regular weight bells...often in red or gold brass...but styles change and so do people. Things are getting brighter these days. My current fave is an 8" 7LW on my smallbore slides. I think if I was playing a great deal of orchestral or chamber work I'd feel the same way on larger bores as well. I still like my 2RVE bells as a soloist on .525 + .547, though. Lots of depth to the sound right on up to f and beyond. Good in brass quintets, too.

Later...

S.

It's an interesting description of the VE bells. When I was playing on Shires I played on both the 2RVE and 2RVET7 bells expecting them to play like old Conn 8H/88H bells but they didn't. They were heavier, more solid and with more core. They may be made like elkie bells but they sure don't play or sound like them for me. They just didn't have that flexibility, edge and snap of a good elkie bell. In the end I felt it was too much like hard work. In retrospect I might have been better off with a 7YLW or similar bell.....

ttf_Tromborinha · Post by **ttf_Tromborinha** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:54 am

Thank you all for the advice! So there is a long way to try... I'm curious about it!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:57 am

Quote from: Duffle on Jul 12, 2014, 01:28PMIt's an interesting description of the VE bells. When I was playing on Shires I played on both the 2RVE and 2RVET7 bells expecting them to play like old Conn 8H/88H bells but they didn't. They were heavier, more solid and with more core. They may be made like elkie bells but they sure don't play or sound like them for me. They just didn't have that flexibility, edge and snap of a good elkie bell. In the end I felt it was too much like hard work. In retrospect I might have been better off with a 7YLW or similar bell.....

There's more to the instrument than just the bell. Depending on what you were looking for, the rest of the set-up might have to be adjusted. This seems to be the case here.

What slide, valve, leadpipe, and tuning slide were you using?

-Ben

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:55 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 14, 2014, 10:57AMThere's more to the instrument than just the bell. Depending on what you were looking for, the rest of the set-up might have to be adjusted. This seems to be the case here.

What slide, valve, leadpipe, and tuning slide were you using?

-Ben

With those two bells I used both a T47 and aT47G slide, a VE leadpipe, both a rotor and a trubore valve section and both a yellow brass drawn and a yellow brass seamed tuning slide. On paper close Elkie specs....... For me, any combination of the above didn't really get close to playing or sounding like an Elkhart 88H.....maybe something to do with me!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:31 am

Quote from: Duffle on Jul 15, 2014, 08:55AMWith those two bells I used both a T47 and aT47G slide, a VE leadpipe, both a rotor and a trubore valve section and both a yellow brass drawn and a yellow brass seamed tuning slide. On paper close Elkie specs....... For me, any combination of the above didn't really get close to playing or sounding like an Elkhart 88H.....maybe something to do with me!

Part of this depends on what Elkhart Conn you are thinking of...they're all different.

I personally find lightweight slides to be closer to what I think of as the '62-'67 Elkhart feel and sound. I also prefer a wide slide as it has a little bit more of the snap; the narrow slides tend to be very dense and focused, which I think is truer of the '53-'59-ish horns. A TW47GLW or T47GLW are my personal favorites with this horn. Your mileage may be different.

But...As mentioned in an earlier posting on this thread, at the end of the day this is a Shires and not an Elkhart Conn, so it won't play or sound exactly the same.

Ben

P.S. The dates of Elkhart Conns mentioned above and impressions are based on my personal experience. Your impressions might be different...

ttf_Vintage88H · Post by **ttf_Vintage88H** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:39 am

I played Elkhart Conn 8H/88H trombones from all decades the last 17 years. Great trombones. I agree with Ben. A Shires has it´s own Sound. I think it`s nearly impossible to find a Shires which plays/sounds exactly like an Elkhart Conn because it´s a Shires. If you want the Elkie Sound/feel there is only the way to play and Elkhart.

But in my opinion a Shires plays much easier, more constant and with a lot of soul in a way like vintage horns.

But it´s still a Shires. Wonderful horn!!!!!!

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:54 pm

seeing we are on the topic of horn combinations could you talk about the most common combos? There seems to be some pretty successful common setups out there. Could you tell us what the Atlanta guys are playing on?

Thanks

Matt Lynch

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:57 pm

Ben can correct me if I'm wrong, but the most popular combination for orchestral tenor right now is a TW47 slide, usually axial valve, 7YLW bell. AFAIK, that's what Colin Williams plays on, and it's also the basis for Daniele Morandini's horn.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:03 pm

I have a couple questions I'd love answers to.

Is an extended tuning slide availible for the second valve, like low D or C?

Why is red brass availible only for seamed tuning slides and not drawn ones?

What bell treatments are availible?

I think you touched on this: Can a .578" bore slide (both tubes) be ordered? If so, is there an additional fee?

The next questions shows me just how custom you guys can go:

Can a slide with a red brass crook, nickel tubes and red brass barrels be custom ordered?

Thanks!

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:22 am

Thanks Gabe. Yes I have tried Daniele's horn. He is using a bosc valve as well as most of the section at La scala.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:36 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Jul 16, 2014, 06:03PMI have a couple questions I'd love answers to.

Is an extended tuning slide availible for the second valve, like low D or C?

Why is red brass availible only for seamed tuning slides and not drawn ones?

What bell treatments are availible?

I think you touched on this: Can a .578" bore slide (both tubes) be ordered? If so, is there an additional fee?

The next questions shows me just how custom you guys can go:

Can a slide with a red brass crook, nickel tubes and red brass barrels be custom ordered?

Thanks!

I will do my best to answer all of your questions.

1.) Extended slides are available by custom order only. Price depends on what you are looking for and what horn they are for. They are also custom orders so they are non-returnable items and may have an extended wait time for delivery. To ensure proper fit, we do recommend sending your valve section for the slides to built to. Without having your valve section we cannot guarantee fit.

2.) We do not typically stock red brass tubing for drawn red brass tuning slides. We do have red brass sheet on hand for our bells, and we can make seamed tuning slides out of that quite easily. Honestly, most people find what they are looking for from gold brass tuning slides or other options we offer. Any red brass tuning slides would be a custom order, which may delay delivery time and they would be non-returnable items.

3.) There's many bell treatments available. Most we only recommend for certain applications. If you let me know what you were interested in accomplishing I could better guide you. Again, generally most people find what they are looking for from our standard offerings.

4.) .587 slides are available for no extra cost, but they are custom, and therefore (here I go again) non-returnable items with a potentially longer delivery time.

5.) We would not make a slide such as you described. We would be willing to make a slide with a gold brass crook with nickel, lightweight (no overtubes) outer slide. We would not change barrel material.

As a post script to these answers (and what I cannot stress enough): We can usually get to what a particular person wants through our standard options. Beyond that it is best to bring the aesthetic goal you are hoping to accomplish to us and we will work from there. All horn designs are not the same, and so we are best equipped to know what combinations from what we offer will bring you closest to your goals.

We do offer a dizzying variety of options, but the most of what people would want can be accomplished with relatively "standard" options. They've become "standard" because they work for the vast majority of players out there.

Let us know what you are looking for and we will do our best to accomplish it.

-Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:39 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jul 16, 2014, 05:57PMBen can correct me if I'm wrong, but the most popular combination for orchestral tenor right now is a TW47 slide, usually axial valve, 7YLW bell. AFAIK, that's what Colin Williams plays on, and it's also the basis for Daniele Morandini's horn.

That is indeed the most popular combination, and it's what I think of as "the" Shires large bore tenor. This slide and bell combination is what we make and sell the most of, though people will tweak tuning slide and valve to suit their needs.

Colin did play this combination but is now playing a different model: TII 5YVNY/TG/Axial/TB47L w/2SS leadpipe.

For what its worth, you can order a Morandini with a standard wrap axial valve too, which is similar but not exactly the same as the set-up listed above.

-Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:53 am

Thanks for the answers Ben! Once I have the dough, I am totally going to buy a Shires!

I have cousins that live in Boston. Would I be able to come down to Shires and check out the factory, maybe even play a horn?

Also, what is the extent of the assortment of parts in your showroom?

ttf_r4mos · Post by **ttf_r4mos** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:57 am

What exactly is in the Eastman by Shires ETB-630? I play one myself and love it to death and am curious about the specifics.
Thanks!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:22 am

Quote from: r4mos on Jul 17, 2014, 09:57AMWhat exactly is in the Eastman by Shires ETB-630? I play one myself and love it to death and am curious about the specifics.
Thanks!

This is an Eastman trombone that we designed and licensed our name for use with this instrument. They used some of what we recommended but not everything, so I cannot comment on the specifics. Your best bet would be to contact and Eastman rep and have them tell you about it. From what I have heard, these are good horns for the money.

Ben

ttf_r4mos · Post by **ttf_r4mos** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:46 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 17, 2014, 11:22AMThis is an Eastman trombone that we designed and licensed our name for use with this instrument. They used some of what we recommended but not everything, so I cannot comment on the specifics. Your best bet would be to contact and Eastman rep and have them tell you about it. From what I have heard, these are good horns for the money.

Ben

Oh heck yeah it's a good horn for the money! It outplayed about 3 brand new Bachs, and I got it for $1200.

Happy me!

ttf_AxSlinger7String · Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:51 am

I also play an Eastman by Shires and have been wondering if Shires leadpipes are compatible with them....

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:37 pm

Quote from: AxSlinger7String on Jul 17, 2014, 11:51AMI also play an Eastman by Shires and have been wondering if Shires leadpipes are compatible with them....

They should be, however we cannot and will not guaranty fit in any other manufacturer's instruments.

Best,
Ben

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 am

Ben thanks for all the very detailed answers! The new setup Colin is on looks like it must be very similar to a vintage bach? The L stands for long on the slide? What is the idea behind the long slides?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:39 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Jul 17, 2014, 08:53AMI have cousins that live in Boston. Would I be able to come down to Shires and check out the factory, maybe even play a horn?

Also, what is the extent of the assortment of parts in your showroom?

^ as well as the effects of T7 on a bell...generally.

Thanks

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:28 am

We would be willing to give a tour, but we usually reserve appointments for people that are in immediate need of an instrument. We could definitely try some things out but it won't be an in depth appointment; your playing may change between when you try soon and when you are ready to purchase, so the specs may change as well.

-Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:30 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Jul 18, 2014, 03:39AM^ as well as the effects of T7 on a bell...generally.

Thanks

T7 treatment usually provides a quicker response and more feedback behind the bell. They can sound less focused and are not as stable as our standard bells and usually feel larger. We generally recommend it only on a case by case basis.

Ben

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:20 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 17, 2014, 07:39AMThat is indeed the most popular combination, and it's what I think of as "the" Shires large bore tenor. This slide and bell combination is what we make and sell the most of, though people will tweak tuning slide and valve to suit their needs.

I'll bet this is an easier answer for the tenor than the basses.

Care to take a swing at the bass preferences?

Andrew

ttf_JimR · Post by **ttf_JimR** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:10 am

Quote from: griffinben on Feb 10, 2014, 08:29AMA 1YM 8 bell with straight neckpipe and counterweight may be just the ticket you are looking for.

I play this combo. So does our production manager. So does one of our techs. So do a lot of people that try it out. If you want it to be even more similar, go for a T7 treatment on this bell too. I am positive you'll like it.

Ben

Ben responded to my request as to a recommendation for an 8" bell to match with a T25NLW slide for combo/jazz jobs (I have a 1YT7 8.5" bell, TruBore valve and straight neckpipe).

Finally got the 1YM8 bell this week Ben recommended used from Dillons. WOW, what a combination. It took a very good horn to a great horn. Just what I was looking for. Will be hard pressed to use the 1YT7 now.

Thanks Ben, your recommendation was on the money and greatly appreciated.

Can highly recommend this combo: 1YM8, T25NLW and standard YB tuning slide.

(PS - Dillons was professional and a joy to do business with as always)

Cheers
Jim

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:15 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 18, 2014, 06:28AMWe would be willing to give a tour, but we usually reserve appointments for people that are in immediate need of an instrument. We could definitely try some things out but it won't be an in depth appointment; your playing may change between when you try soon and when you are ready to purchase, so the specs may change as well.

-Ben

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 18, 2014, 06:30AMT7 treatment usually provides a quicker response and more feedback behind the bell. They can sound less focused and are not as stable as our standard bells and usually feel larger. We generally recommend it only on a case by case basis.

Ben

Thanks Ben.
You're doing a swell job!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:56 am

Quote from: trmbtrmb on Jul 18, 2014, 03:15AMBen thanks for all the very detailed answers! The new setup Colin is on looks like it must be very similar to a vintage bach? The L stands for long on the slide? What is the idea behind the long slides?

Long slides generally provide define the "slot" of a note more. These are only available on wide slides (narrow slides are already long to compensate for the lost length of a narrow crook). Its a matter of personal preference and we usually only recommend it to certain people.

-Ben

P.S. All early Shires slides are long. At that time, bigger, darker, and heavier were in favor so some folks had trouble coming up to pitch with the longer slide, hence we cut it down a little bit.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:03 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Jul 18, 2014, 09:20PMI'll bet this is an easier answer for the tenor than the basses.

Care to take a swing at the bass preferences?

Andrew

Actually, it's pretty easy for the basses as well:

Bell: BII 7YM
Tuning Slide: BYC or BYB
Valves: Axial
Slide: B62

This is easily our best selling set-up. Brian Hecht is using it in Atlanta.

We tweak different things from here, just like the tenors. The tuning slide is about a 50/50 split, completely personal preference. (B feels a bit more focused than C).

Popular variations? Tru-Bore valves are also very popular. So is a B62-78 slide. A BYCS tuning slide will often split the difference in feel between the BYB and BYC. Bell variations are usually a BII 7GM (a bit warmer sounding) or a BII 1Y.

That's the big stuff, everything else is minor tweaking.

Best,
Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:51 am

Is the Shires master series still availible? If so, what is it?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:30 am

Quote from: LowBrassKing on Jul 22, 2014, 10:51AMIs the Shires master series still availible? If so, what is it?

There is another thread on this subject on the forum. You will need to contact your local dealer to learn more.

Best,
Ben

ttf_Langheck · Post by **ttf_Langheck** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:46 am

Would it be possible to have a Vintage Elkhart bell made in yellow or gold brass, or a Vintage New York bell made in red brass? I do understand that it would be a non returnable custom order if it was possible.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:47 am

Thanks Ben!

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:56 am

Hi again Ben,

I recall you lamenting previously about the lack of 4/3-sized mouthpieces in small shank/shallow cup configurations (in the "what is the trombone mouthpiece market missing?" thread). I notice that this option is conspicuously absent in Shires mouthpiece offerings. I realize that there is a limited market for these sizes (even if there shouldn't be), but is Shires planning to offer them, or really any more small shank mouthpieces in the future?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:59 am

Quote from: Langheck on Jul 22, 2014, 11:46AMWould it be possible to have a Vintage Elkhart bell made in yellow or gold brass, or a Vintage New York bell made in red brass? I do understand that it would be a non returnable custom order if it was possible.

The red brass is part of what makes a Vintage Elkhart a Vintage Elkhart...we've done things that mirror it, but something is lost in the translation and they are nowhere near as good as the VE bells (in red). So while we we could do it (it wouldn't be stamped "VE") I would recommend against it.

We could make a Vintage New York in red brass.

But most importantly why are you interested in these variations?

Best,
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:13 pm

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Jul 22, 2014, 11:56AMHi again Ben,

I recall you lamenting previously about the lack of 4/3-sized mouthpieces in small shank/shallow cup configurations (in the "what is the trombone mouthpiece market missing?" thread). I notice that this option is conspicuously absent in Shires mouthpiece offerings. I realize that there is a limited market for these sizes (even if there shouldn't be), but is Shires planning to offer them, or really any more small shank mouthpieces in the future?

There are no plans to expand or modify our trombone mouthpiece offerings at this time.

Ben

ttf_Langheck · Post by **ttf_Langheck** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:15 pm

The yellow brass Vintage Elkhart for a 78H style horn, and for the Vintage New York I guess for no other reason than to see if it was possible.

ttf_trombone addict · Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:16 pm

What do you think will be the "next big thing" in the future for the boutique trombone market?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:28 pm

Quote from: Langheck on Jul 22, 2014, 12:15PMThe yellow brass Vintage Elkhart for a 78H style horn, and for the Vintage New York I guess for no other reason than to see if it was possible.

The 78H bells were different than the 8/88H in more than just material. Depending on the era, I would recommend a 2YM T7 8 or a 2YLW T7 8 to emulate a 78H. (In general, I recommend a 1yM 8 or a 2RVE 8 for medium bore bells.)

The TII 5RVNY is an intriguing idea. It certainly is possible...

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:57 pm

Quote from: trombone addict on Jul 22, 2014, 12:16PMWhat do you think will be the "next big thing" in the future for the boutique trombone market?

I really couldn't say. I think it depends on what we hear from players!

We are and remain committed to ongoing research and experimentation in the name of a better product. We think it's been working. A lot of what we do would sound very boring but it often leads to or inspires larger developments.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:00 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jul 22, 2014, 12:57PMI really couldn't say. I think it depends on what we hear from players!

We are and remain committed to ongoing research and experimentation in the name of a better product. We think it's been working. A lot of what we do would sound very boring but it often leads to or inspires larger developments.

Can you give us a general statement? Like new materials (carbon fiber slides, Ti coating), new valves (unlikely), new technologies (solenoid activators for valves?), etc. that you personally see coming?

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:05 pm

I could hazard a guess at what could be coming in marketing trends... back to more screw bells. Those options are becoming more available. Case companies are cashing in and airport travel is getting worse.

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:28 pm

Hello I'm looking into buy a shires large tenor and I had a couple questions about finding the perfect parts for my playing style, and was hoping you could throw me some suggestions on specific parts/combos and why.

Here's some info:

Currently play a bach 42bo.

I need a horn that's sound doesn't break up past Forte. I feel like my horn can't handle what I put in it and as a result I get 'edgy' more often than desired.

My articulations are very very pronounced. Being a euphonium player, that's one of the things I'm not getting over so I need a horn to cover that up a little.

still want brilliance in my sound without the easy edge, and I don't want to sound like a euphonium.

Need a much better trigger than the bach .. Don't like the sound of any of the trigger notes. Low range almost has to be forced on this horn.

Thanks!!

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:31 pm

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 22, 2014, 02:28PMHello I'm looking into buy a shires large tenor and I had a couple questions about finding the perfect parts for my playing style, and was hoping you could throw me some suggestions on specific parts/combos and why.

Here's some info:

Currently play a bach 42bo.

I need a horn that's sound doesn't break up past Forte. I feel like my horn can't handle what I put in it and as a result I get 'edgy' more often than desired.

My articulations are very very pronounced. Being a euphonium player, that's one of the things I'm not getting over so I need a horn to cover that up a little.

still want brilliance in my sound without the easy edge, and I don't want to sound like a euphonium.

Need a much better trigger than the bach .. Don't like the sound of any of the trigger notes. Low range almost has to be forced on this horn.

Thanks!!

Is there really a magic Shires setup to match each of us based on our imperfections? If this is true then we all want that of course?

I have so many (40+) small and medium trombones and they all play very different. If I compare I can tell they developed over time. The older ones does not sound like the newer ones, and they sound different from each other in soft playing and in loud playing. There is a .458" Conn from 1902 and a Conn 32H dual bore .500/.522 from 1952 and a Bach 36BO .525 from 2008. And between them (in size) I have a large mix of trombones of different designs and many bore varieties. I can not play them the same. It is up to me to play them so they sound nice. I must learn to adjust to everyone to get the most out of them.

When it comes to large bores, let say more modern .547 trombones from 1960's and later. If I compare my best six horns a Holton TR-150, Conn 88H, Bach 42, Benge 190 C, Edwards T350 and a Schilke ST20 then they all do what you are describing. They can take everything I put in them. Unfortunately no one can mask any bad things in my playing.

If a Shires can mask bad things I will be very impressed.

Anyway my belief is that the design problems you are describing has been taken care of long ago. At least if we are talking about the reliable reputable brands. Unless you have found a real bad instrument from any of the reputable brands. They also exists

If we compare all those great horns then the differences between them is not that big. They do sound different but they all should take what you put in them.

If you listen to classical recordings from the 60's and to day and listen to the trombone sections, e.g. the Chicago lower brass section, you will also hear that the trombones they used could take what they put in them. It came out as a nice sound on those recordings even if they did not play a Shires.

I would not try to buy myself out of the issues you are describing. I doubt a Shires really can help you with this? What happens when you do not play a Shires anymore? Will the problems you describe come back?

I'm very interested and I'm also looking forward to read the answer to this question you had:
Quote Hello I'm looking into buy a shires large tenor and I had a couple questions about finding the perfect parts for my playing style, and was hoping you could throw me some suggestions on specific parts/combos and why.
/Tom

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:47 pm

Is it possible to order a bell that has not been fitted with ferrules or threaded bell brace hardware? This would be for the purpose of fitting it to Bach parts I already have.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:42 pm

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jul 22, 2014, 05:47PMIs it possible to order a bell that has not been fitted with ferrules or threaded bell brace hardware? This would be for the purpose of fitting it to Bach parts I already have.

DJ had one. Yellow brass. Cool Sherry Huntley engraving (early Shires).
I traded it to him, and last I heard, he still had it.
No hardware, no lacquer. The guy I got it from had it on a 42 frame I think.
Just saying...

T.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:52 pm

Euphoni, the Bach 42BO has the same valve that was a problem in the 42B, just with an open wrap. No wonder you don't like the trigger register. Going to any of the better valve systems (K, Thayer, Hagmann, Trubore, Rotax, etc.) will do a lot to open up the trigger register.

I'll let Ben suggest something to help with the breaking up at loud volumes. My Bach 36G is more tolerant of a lot of air than a lot of my other horns.

ttf_Kelly · Post by **ttf_Kelly** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:47 am

Start with changing things further up the chain. This sounds like more of a mouthpiece/soft instrument issue than a horn issue for the most part. Give Doug Ellliot a call. I had the same issue in a small bore horn. Ended up with a Shires Davis and a DE mp. Make sure your tonguing and breathing is coordinated.

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 22, 2014, 02:28PMHello I'm looking into buy a shires large tenor and I had a couple questions about finding the perfect parts for my playing style, and was hoping you could throw me some suggestions on specific parts/combos and why.

Here's some info:

Currently play a bach 42bo.

I need a horn that's sound doesn't break up past Forte. I feel like my horn can't handle what I put in it and as a result I get 'edgy' more often than desired.

My articulations are very very pronounced. Being a euphonium player, that's one of the things I'm not getting over so I need a horn to cover that up a little.

still want brilliance in my sound without the easy edge, and I don't want to sound like a euphonium.

Need a much better trigger than the bach .. Don't like the sound of any of the trigger notes. Low range almost has to be forced on this horn.

Thanks!!

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:02 am

Quote from: Kelly on Jul 23, 2014, 03:47AMStart with changing things further up the chain. This sounds like more of a mouthpiece/soft instrument issue than a horn issue for the most part. Give Doug Ellliot a call. I had the same issue in a small bore horn. Ended up with a Shires Davis and a DE mp. Make sure your tonguing and breathing is coordinated.

⁭___ This is my thought too. You said it much better than I did

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:03 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 22, 2014, 01:00PMCan you give us a general statement? Like new materials (carbon fiber slides, Ti coating), new valves (unlikely), new technologies (solenoid activators for valves?), etc. that you personally see coming?

We've experimented with carbon fiber and there are a couple of Shires carbon fiber slides in the world. But they do not retain the sound or feel that we are striving to achieve.

Valves are likely more of a refinement of existing technology, like our dual bore valve. We already make 8 different valves, all in house. But you can count on Steve to follow an idea if he feels its worthwhile.

I don't see a lot of exotic things hitting horns. Not in the mainstream, at least. I do see further refinement of what exists and quality of everything improving. Most of the ideas and technologies you see on a modern instrument have existed for decades. The trick is being able to execute it consistently, efficiently, and cheaply. A bass trombone with solenoid actuated valves certainly could be done in this day and age. But how reliable would it be? How long would it take to make? How much would it cost?

I think the exciting thing is that the horns are getting better. ALL of them, and in the little ways that don;t sound like much on their own but add up to a whole lot when you rely on your instrument day to day to make your living. Its a golden age of trombones, and we're living in it. I find that exciting.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:07 am

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Jul 22, 2014, 02:05PMI could hazard a guess at what could be coming in marketing trends... back to more screw bells. Those options are becoming more available. Case companies are cashing in and airport travel is getting worse.

This has been a trend, but not a large one...yet.

The limiting factor has largely been a lack of flat cases (and a lack of interest from case manufacturers in making one). Now that there is a screw bell case available from Basili, we may see more interest but there is a limit to what he produces and exports. We have been and continue to explore getting a flat case of our own made; when it comes to fruition I will be sure to post here!

-Ben