Air/breathing

[Savio]

There is a lot of theories on this subject, and they often go in lot of different directions. I want to focus on inhaling in between frases. I have a problem to do big breath in without removing lips from the mouthpiece. And it sometimes result in a problem in next attack. Most players breath in through the corners and thats what Doug Elliott told me to do. I practice to do it and it helps. I see good players like Toby Oft do this very elegant. But when I need a really big breath fast on the bass trombone I struggle. And I miss notes because I open the mouth too much.

I also see some players keep the overlip in place and remove the underlip from the mouthpiece when breathing in. Tried it and it seems to work for me when I need a big breath. Small breaths between frases goes ok with keeping the mouthpiece in place and breath through corners.

Strange thing is Im nearly 60 and smoke a little bit. 10 cigarettes per day. And I have stronger breath than some 30 years old that dont smoke. But of course, smokers today are seen as criminals and I try to stop. Not easy.

Anyway, here is a sarabande from bach cello suites that needs small breaths here and there;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwmejzi2j344k ... n.mp3?dl=0

Or this link:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnFhNyFesmcYhe1ZgnZ9C5X6RB5RtA

Leif

[baileyman]

It may not be "...I miss notes because I open the mouth too much.". It could just be that there is not enough time to get that motion back to your set ready to play. I suppose practicing the motion may help, smooth it out, quicken it, but it could also help to get an earlier start on it.

[VJOFan]

I know a practice routine that helped me with this is the Charlie Vernon style breathing exercises. (There are numerous explanations, videos and pdfs online for them. And they're in his book, A Singing Approach to the Trombone)

Gaining control over the breath and developing relaxation while breathing deeply, away from the horn, can help with cleaning up phrases when playing.

[timothy42b]

I have discovered something from the mask experiences.

When I have to do speaking parts with others like recitations in church, etc., and have to wear a mask, I found it impossible to get a full breath. All there is time for is a quick nose sniff and that isn't nearly enough air to get through the phrase.

Except it is enough, it just doesn't feel like it. That small nose breath lets me talk much longer than I realized, if I don't panic. I was wasting air. I don't know if a similar thing can happen on trombone.

[DDoghouse]

Time your breath just as you would time any note - what part of the beat it starts on, and how long it lasts. Allow that time between phrases. Don't try to cram your inhale into whatever space happens to be left over at the end of a phrase.

Also, inhale silently. If you can hear your inhale, you are restricting the air to some degree. With the horn away from your face, open your throat ("aahhhh") and fill your lungs silently. You'll be amazed at how quickly this can happen.

Practice getting full with as little effort as possible.

[imsevimse]

Hi Leif! Nice playing

I think you have to breath when you have to. I get short on air on basstrombone more often than on tenor. I've found I have to plan breathing ahead more on bass trombone. Sometimes I discover I need to play softer to make the air last longer, as l to reach a spot where I can be allowed to take fuller breath.
I have also found that a nose sniff can give me that extra air, just go reach the spot where the bigger breath is possible.
On tenor I practice circular breathing and that is helpful in many big band settings. Unfortunately I'm not that good on circular breathing in the low register.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I agree with planning ahead and controlling volume (and generally being more efficient) to conserve air.

Two things that I find helpful for getting in a lot of air when I need it:

Breathe through the corners but get your tongue back out of the way. I see a lot of players push their tongue forward when they inhale, and it just blocks the incoming air.

Inhale by expanding from the low part of your stomach - If I consciously work on that, I can take in much more air a lot faster.

[ithinknot]

Inhale by expanding from the low part of your stomach - If I consciously work on that, I can take in much more air a lot faster.

^^^ Yes, and this is one of the reasons literally every musician (possibly every human) should have at least a handful of singing lessons from a really good teacher.

Ask most people - even some very fine brass players - to demonstrate 'a deep breath' and you'll see shoulder antics, ribcage shooting up and out etc, all of which is wasted superficial effort and doesn't fill the lungs anywhere near capacity. It's easy to test - if you think you've filled properly, try topping up further with a sharp sniff and you may find there was plenty of extra room.

Instead, you want to lower the diaphragm quickly and smoothly, and you'll expand round the waist like Santa after a serious milk and cookie bender. (Sure, some other stuff moves as a result, but if you have the diaphragm under conscious control the rest of the mechanics usually take care of themselves.)

[SimmonsTrombone]

I have asthma and have come to realize it has caused me to keep my chest muscles somewhat tense as a protective measure. I have worked to keep my chest relaxed and find I take in more air. You might check to be sure you’re not doing the same.

[Basbasun]

I know a practice routine that helped me with this is the Charlie Vernon style breathing exercises. (There are numerous explanations, videos and pdfs online for them. And they're in his book, A Singing Approach to the Trombone)

Gaining control over the breath and developing relaxation while breathing deeply, away from the horn, can help with cleaning up phrases when playing.

Yes, if you don´t have that book, get it.

The bass trombone is an air consuming consuming best. Playing small, medium and large teonor and tuba I say there is only one instrument that is worse. Contrbass trombone.

Thinking of diaphragm and gut when playing can make it worse. If you are in the habit of keeping your tongue low under the inhalation, do keep that habit.

Stay tall try to keep you body erect. Exercise, walk, run, it does help. Good breathing is a habit.

[FOSSIL]

That is seriously fine music making Leif....Bravo !!!
That piece puts all of our technique out there for examination and I think you come out of it really well. As for the breath, I feel it is a case of not what you are doing but where you are doing it.... take the first phrase....you play for more than two bars and are then stuck for a good place to take air. Those four bars work best taken as two and two or the whole four in one breath. Just look for the most natural punctuation marks....most of them you have already found. I loved listening to you...thanks.

Chris

[boneagain]

+1 on the comments about the nice playing Leif!

A corrollary to Doug's excellent (as always) post: learn to relax!

An opera singer named Leilah Farah helped me a lot with my breathing. She did a LOT of work (I had THOUGHT I knew how to breath... silly me.) The short version is she taught my how to relax my abdominal muscles... QUICKLY!

Longer version: the diaphragm WILL contract and pull air into the lungs IF you allow it to. The abdominal muscles hold your viscera up against the diaphragm. If you contract your abdominal muscles they will force the diaphragm up toward/into the rib cage. In the other direction, if you relax those muscles you get a kind of internal vacuum effect that lets the diaphragm contract more easily.

One of Ms. Farah's exercises was to repeatedly contract the abdominal muscles VERY consciously then, with just as much concentration, release them as quickly as possible. This exercise was NEVER done while singing (or playing.) The idea was to practice it with concentration to the point it could be done WITHOUT concentration while singing or playing.

Rapid relaxation of the abdomen pulls in a huge amount of air (as Doug noted.) The inhalation force is sufficient to get around corners with the embouchure still set on the mouthpiece. The problem then becomes "mach number." If one does not shift the tongue as Doug notes, this rapid air movement will create whistling or other "chuffing" that can make for, um, interesting sonic side effects in recording. I have found this more of a problem with bass trombone (and especially tuba) mouthpieces than with tenors.

Of course, if you manage to apply Doug's advice, you will find Chris' point more important.

A U.S. management expert named Peter Drucker had a phrase I found very helpful:

Efficiency is doing things right.
Effectiveness is doing the right thing.

Drucker's point was that if you are very efficient but not doing the right thing, the efficiency ceases to matter. But if you are doing the right thing, THEN efficiency will be worth the effort.

Anyway, again, nice playing! Thanks for sharing the recording!

Dave

[baileyman]

LA pros are coordinating the intercostal muscles with diaphragm.

[Basbasun]

Very good post from bailyman. To practise contraction and release away from the horn is geat.

But when playing thinking about the diaphragm and abdomen is contraproductive.
When you think about your belly under inhalation when you are playing, it will tense up. Yes it will.

[Basbasun]

Actually, I think you have enough air! But I think you could take a breath soner.

[Doug Elliott]

The whole point is to practice the right and most efficient things so that they become second nature and you don't have to think about them.

[Savio]

I have been trying to keep the overlip in place and open the underlip on big breaths. On small quick breaths keep all lips in place and breath through corners. Is that ok? Anyway thanks to all!
Leif

[JohnD]

Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing by Claude Gordon. Amen.
That’s what he said. Years ago, I was puzzled. After two decades of trombone playing, I started playing trumpet and was baffled by the enormous resistance the little horn offered. It took a long time to adjust but I found my way and kept on being an amateur trumpeter with dixieland and big bands. After twenty years + , I quit due to age. By turning 60, I found it hard now to play the lead. And trombone always had been my passion.

Going back to trombone was a special cup of tea. No range problem, as usual for trumpet guys. But I cracked notes in the high register on a regular basis and could not get rid of this. So I had to analyze.
Here is what I found:
1. Too much power aka amount of air to go through the trombone, too large, too fast. Boy, this is no trumpet, calm down. But why do I do so?
2. I am used to resistance. But what does this mean?

3. Resistance is mandatory for playing brass instruments. How to find the right amount of resistance?

4. There are two ways to achieve resistance: first, you can manage it by using the embouchure and employ the lips to withstand air stream. Second, you can adjust the mouthpiece/ horn combination to have it providing you with what you need.
5. I advocate the second way, because the trumpet did this job all the time, at least compared to a trombone.

6. Gave it try: No.1 – Bach 42, Giardinelli 3G. Nice combination. Range, sound (Wagner-like) and loudness range ok, but way too much work on high range ballad-style solos with the wind orchestra (1st chair). Obviously, after extensive playing time, I started off building up resistance via lips a lot more than I should. While tiring out fast this way, I found myself consticting the throat! This is the worst thing you can do!!! How to get more resistance? Anyway, this combination felt like blowing out of the window….

7. Next try: No.2 – King 3B/F with Yamaha 48 or similar. Much better, no embouchure problems. After long concert playing, embouchure remained stable, could play on and on, but the air-pump – abdominal muscles- tired out severely. Exhausted after concert. Hm.

8. More investigations: Since I own a whole lot of mouthpieces and 3 trombones of different bore sizes (.547, .508, .500), it was no problem to figure out what combination would be helpful. I began this procedure without any kind of prejudice.

9. Yes! The .500 with Giardinelli 6D eased up things all the way.

10. How to check out: After a short settling time, I should be able to play full-throttle fff and hold it, at least in mid-upper range. Which requires a full-bodied air stream. Which requires an open throat. Lips do vibrate, with no strain. If the throat is not opened properly, it fails. Next, I tried this throughout the range low f to high f. Watch out for fully sounding tone, even at the extreme ends. If you find your lips collapsing, you are trying to produce resistance from there. So there is too little resistance in the system at some point.

11. If horn and mouthpiece are allright: Do not overdo! Take your time and start off practizing p – pp- mf and double / triple tonguing etc. You will find a nice sound developing. You do not tire out.

12. How to breath? Stand with good posture, upright. Inhale without strain, play fairly long notes. Stop before running out of air. The mouthpiece is fine with your lips and lips are not stressed. Go for crescendos. When it comes to extreme dynamics, the mainly regulative support should be the abdominal muscles system! Hold back a little for p, shove all up for fff. Do it all in a relatively relaxed manner. Do not cramp.

13. Take your time. It is not done in a day, nor in a week. It is a matter of experimenting. Unfortunately, it requires to be well equipped.

14. The headline says it all. Claude Gordon is right, of course. Don’t think too much about it. Feel it, trial and error. Take rests. Do not overdue. At the end, you should be very comfortable with what you have. All range and all dynamics there. Sound is resonant, projects and is full bodied.
No one can tell you, what equipment might be the right one for you. It depends on your physical, individual requirements.

15. Conclusion. Resistance is the key. Abdominal muscles are the air triggering tools. Find the way to your individual resistance requirements. The air-resistance system consist of player-mouthpiece-trombone. Adjust. Primarily, there is no need for excessive small or large mouthpieces for sound modulation. Nor is it the width of the trombone bore. It’s all air. As the horns are called wind instruments, not squeeze horns or biceps pressure trumpets.
Maybe, an orchestra wants a special timbre, then i.e. they go for all .547 or something. That’s something different.

The .500 is my choice, by far. The larger horns do not tolerate the small-type mouthpieces – in my case.

Just my 2 cents, hope this helps any. By no means intended for use by absolute beginners.

Greetz, John

[baileyman]

Very good post from bailyman. To practise contraction and release away from the horn is geat.

But when playing thinking about the diaphragm and abdomen is contraproductive.
When you think about your belly under inhalation when you are playing, it will tense up. Yes it will.

I'll try that.

I also recently have been working on diaphragm (or maybe it's the abdominals?) and intercostal independence. Something like, while playing an easy long tone with relaxed breath, deliberately move the belly in and out while keeping the tone. Any time tension seems to happen, wiggle it.

[Basbasun]

https://www.innerbody.com/image/musc06.html

The link above is a page about the diphragm, many musicians do talk about the diaphragma not having the faintest idea what they talk about.

The first 15 years of playing I heard people, players and teachers talk about the diaphragma just not knowing anything about it. My first wife (a doctors daughter) gave me knowlidge and litterature about the body.

Well Leif do know about the diaphragma.

[Basbasun]

I have been trying to keep the overlip in place and open the underlip on big breaths. On small quick breaths keep all lips in place and breath through corners. Is that ok? Anyway thanks to all!
Leif

That is what I did for at least 30 years, though I must say it did work very good for me, I changed after a discoussion with some players I admired, to keep the mpc on both upper and lower lips and breath through corners as you say you do on small quick breaths , only I do that all the time. Since 15 years back. I do pull the corners back for breathing. Low tongue. Try to find a way to inhale with as litle noice as possible. But as said, you recording does not sond like you are short of breath.

[AndrewMeronek]

Something like, while playing an easy long tone with relaxed breath, deliberately move the belly in and out while keeping the tone. Any time tension seems to happen, wiggle it.

IMHO don't do this while playing. The only time the belly should change is when actually changing your breath. Anything else is extra, unnecessary motion that just creates more work.

A couple of months ago I put up a video explanation of one of the most simple and useful fundamental breathing exercises I know. It's nothing to do with the corner breathing that Doug mentioned above (which I love), but just has to do with what it feels like to use our full air capacity, and some related thoughts.

[timothy42b]

1. Too much power aka amount of air to go through the trombone, too large, too fast. Boy, this is no trumpet, calm down. But why do I do so?

4. There are two ways to achieve resistance: first, you can manage it by using the embouchure and employ the lips to withstand air stream. Second, you can adjust the mouthpiece/ horn combination to have it providing you with what you need.
Greetz, John

I'll try again - post disappeared.

it's a bit of a nitpick but I think there are more than 2 ways.

Farkas in the 1962 Art of Brass Playing thought there were 3 ways to resist the flow of air (not always the same as perceived resistance to sound wave, but it's the topic.)

He thought you could do it at the lips, the throat, or the diaphragm. He thought the lips job was pitch and tone control, and the diaphragm not capable of quick fine adjustments, so the proper control was at the throat. He got some things wrong about embouchures and I think retracted some of it later but not this.

The MRI data we now have shows a lot of throat involvement so I think he was right. And there are people who advocated strong "support" for pianissimo playing and obviously that has to be controlled at the throat. So I think he's right, though it may be counterproductive to do it intentionally.

[baileyman]

...
Farkas in the 1962 Art of Brass Playing thought there were 3 ways to resist the flow of air...

He thought you could do it at the lips, the throat, or the diaphragm. He thought the lips job was pitch and tone control, and the diaphragm not capable of quick fine adjustments, so the proper control was at the throat. He got some things wrong about embouchures and I think retracted some of it later but not this.

The MRI data we now have shows a lot of throat involvement so I think he was right. And there are people who advocated strong "support" for pianissimo playing and obviously that has to be controlled at the throat. So I think he's right, though it may be counterproductive to do it intentionally.

I read Farkas 40 years ago and he seems just so wrong now.

Far more important seems to be establishing resistance with the back of the tongue. It acts like a pressure regulator, taking the relatively high pressure in the torso down to what is needed for the pitches. Resistance in the throat is an invitation to passing out on high notes. I think he also recommended using the glottis.

Meanwhile, it's clear the volume in the mouth can force the tune of the lips. And the lips can separately drive pitch as mentioned.

[timothy42b]

Far more important seems to be establishing resistance with the back of the tongue. It acts like a pressure regulator, taking the relatively high pressure in the torso down to what is needed for the pitches. Resistance in the throat is an invitation to passing out on high notes. I think he also recommended using the glottis.

As did Jim Markey.

[Savio]

Have to try what all say. Breath trough corners. In the beginning of that piece I take a big big breath, and make a long frase. Its the small breaths we have to take that sometimes mess up next note attack. It didnt so much in that clip because I focused much on breathing. But often it do when I dont think about the breath. I can take in a lot of air so thats not the problem. Thanks for tips.

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

The thing that messes up the next note is the small changes in the placement if you take too much pressure off during the breath. Make sure you keep mouthpiece pressure on top and bottom while you breathe through the corners. Get your tongue out of the way. Pull the air in from your diaphragm. It works well if you do all of that.

[Basbasun]

James Markey

[Basbasun]

David Vinning

[Savio]

Thanks for the video. It make sense. Honestly I have never thought about the stomach when breathing. Never understood it either. What these guys tell make sense. Why complicate things. My concern was about breathing through the corners.

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

When the diaphragm contracts to inhale, it pushes the guts out of the way and you stomach goes out. Everything else expands too. Focus on it or not, that's what happens.

Demonstrations are like statistics - you can make it look like whatever you want.

[baileyman]

Using the intercostals a strong image floods my brain of a flying lizard.

https://www.genesispark.com/wp-content/ ... Lizard.jpg

[Basbasun]

Thanks for the video. It make sense. Honestly I have never thought about the stomach when breathing. Never understood it either. What these guys tell make sense. Why complicate things. My concern was about breathing through the corners.

Leif

For many years I inhaled through the lower part of my mouth, keeping the mpc on my upper lip. I changet to inhaling through the corner after a talk to Alessi and Markey, found it to be better.

"Don't expand to inhale, inhale to expand" A. Jacobs. It is good to know how the respiratory muscles work, actually I did spend a lot of time reading about it. The thing is that all of those muscles are working fine if you are fit.

Breath through the corners!

[imsevimse]

Thanks for the video. It make sense. Honestly I have never thought about the stomach when breathing. Never understood it either. What these guys tell make sense. Why complicate things. My concern was about breathing through the corners.

Leif

For many years I inhaled through the lower part of my mouth, keeping the mpc on my upper lip. I changet to inhaling through the corner after a talk to Alessi and Markey, found it to be better.

"Don't expand to inhale, inhale to expand" A. Jacobs. It is good to know how the respiratory muscles work, actually I did spend a lot of time reading about it. The thing is that all of those muscles are working fine if you are fit.

Breath through the corners!

Many good advice in this thread!

I also now try to keep both lips in contact with the mouthpiece and breath through the corners. I heard a hissing sound when I recorded myself and discovered I took breath through the horn, at least some of it.

I'm happy I followed this thread

It was relatively easy to change this and just pull back corners more when I inhale. Now I need to remember this every time I breath and relearn. For me the problem was the hissing sound was picked up by a close mic. Maybe with the change I also get more air AND faster air now.

[JohnD]

Since you cannot separate inhaling from general breathing technique on brass, here is another website which explains quite well what I described above.
Breath support like a singer. Makes it easier playing extended phrases. Eases up dynamics. Inhaling frequency declines. How to inhale fast, if needed at all? Next time you jump with fright you will find out.

https://singwell.eu/breath-support-exercises/

Since I'm playing trombone instead of singing: tongue out of the way of the air stream when necessary, but use of tongue as a valve by controlling tongue level and perform articulation with the frontal part of tongue - but not by using the very tip of it.

Update:
In between I'm back on Giardinelli 4D or 3D by adding some (little) resistance via lips. No more flip in Up- Downstream type. Allright.Try C major scales over two octaves at 72 bpm up and down in sixteenth, 3 cycles should be possible on one breath, after all, it's a small bore tbn.

About the complaining guy in the video with a book on the belly for watching his breathing: Everybody breathes like this by nature while laying down. Nobody wants a belly dance,that's ridiculous - and useless.


Greetz, John