Thanks Ben for your answer
I am curious about something...
All three artist model bass trombones have yellow bell (type 7?), dual bore slide and independent axial valves. Ben....how does that strike you?
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
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ttf_Bassmentbone
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Bassmentbone on Apr 03, 2017, 05:47PMThanks Ben for your answer
I am curious about something...
All three artist model bass trombones have yellow bell (type 7?), dual bore slide and independent axial valves. Ben....how does that strike you?
That's kind of a leading question, and I think it's fair to say that if Ben had a personal opinion that he didn't feel comfortable to say as a representative of the company he wouldn't put it here in a public forum.
I'll say, as a former representative of the company now only representative in the sense that I am a proud Shires artist who sometimes does events on behalf of the company...artist models take a long time to develop and come to an agreement about, and these particular three artists have these particular preferences. They represent exactly what these three artists play every day, and that's a good thing.
I will also say this: despite the superficial similarities, these are three very different instruments that get at the demands of playing in a large orchestra in different ways.
There are plenty of other Shires artists who play different bass trombone combinations, and you can see those by looking at that page on the Shires website.
I am curious about something...
All three artist model bass trombones have yellow bell (type 7?), dual bore slide and independent axial valves. Ben....how does that strike you?
That's kind of a leading question, and I think it's fair to say that if Ben had a personal opinion that he didn't feel comfortable to say as a representative of the company he wouldn't put it here in a public forum.
I'll say, as a former representative of the company now only representative in the sense that I am a proud Shires artist who sometimes does events on behalf of the company...artist models take a long time to develop and come to an agreement about, and these particular three artists have these particular preferences. They represent exactly what these three artists play every day, and that's a good thing.
I will also say this: despite the superficial similarities, these are three very different instruments that get at the demands of playing in a large orchestra in different ways.
There are plenty of other Shires artists who play different bass trombone combinations, and you can see those by looking at that page on the Shires website.
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ttf_Duffle
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Ben
We hear a lot about the 7 bells, in particular the 7YLW and 7YM, and sometimes the 7G bells, but I haven't heard much talk about the 7R bells, or the 8R bells. What are their playing and sonic qualities? How do they compare to the other red bells (2RLW, 2RVE, 2RVET7 etc.)? Do folks use them or are they rarities?.......
We hear a lot about the 7 bells, in particular the 7YLW and 7YM, and sometimes the 7G bells, but I haven't heard much talk about the 7R bells, or the 8R bells. What are their playing and sonic qualities? How do they compare to the other red bells (2RLW, 2RVE, 2RVET7 etc.)? Do folks use them or are they rarities?.......
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ttf_BillO
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Not replying for Ben, but just my observations.
The 7's are soldered bead bells, the 2's and 8's are unsoldered bead. For me an unsoldered bead, like a [s]King 4B or[/s] Conn 88H will have more responsive articulation than a soldered bead. They play delicately more easily than the soldered ones. As well a soldered bead bell will generally hold their characteristic tone over a much broader dynamic range. They don't 'light up' as early as an unsoldered bell. The soldered bead bell tends to slot a little more deeply for me. I find these general characteristics true of any soldered vs. unsoldered bead horns, no matter what the make or material. Think Bach 42B vs Conn 88H.
I don't know what specifically is different between a 2 and an 8 though, other than the way the 2 pieces are put together.
p.s. I have never known a unsolderd bead bell to suffer from acid bleed - not that that makes any difference to the way they play. Just another observation.
P.S. Update - apparently I have a very odd King 4B...
The 7's are soldered bead bells, the 2's and 8's are unsoldered bead. For me an unsoldered bead, like a [s]King 4B or[/s] Conn 88H will have more responsive articulation than a soldered bead. They play delicately more easily than the soldered ones. As well a soldered bead bell will generally hold their characteristic tone over a much broader dynamic range. They don't 'light up' as early as an unsoldered bell. The soldered bead bell tends to slot a little more deeply for me. I find these general characteristics true of any soldered vs. unsoldered bead horns, no matter what the make or material. Think Bach 42B vs Conn 88H.
I don't know what specifically is different between a 2 and an 8 though, other than the way the 2 pieces are put together.
p.s. I have never known a unsolderd bead bell to suffer from acid bleed - not that that makes any difference to the way they play. Just another observation.
P.S. Update - apparently I have a very odd King 4B...
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: BillO on Apr 08, 2017, 11:33AMNot replying for Ben, but just my observations.
The 7's are soldered bead bells, the 2's and 8's are unsoldered bead. For me an unsoldered bead, like a [s]King 4B or[/s] Conn 88H will have more responsive articulation than a soldered bead. They play delicately more easily than the soldered ones. As well a soldered bead bell will generally hold their characteristic tone over a much broader dynamic range. They don't 'light up' as early as an unsoldered bell. The soldered bead bell tends to slot a little more deeply for me. I find these general characteristics true of any soldered vs. unsoldered bead horns, no matter what the make or material. Think Bach 42B vs Conn 88H.
I don't know what specifically is different between a 2 and an 8 though, other than the way the 2 pieces are put together.
p.s. I have never known a unsolderd bead bell to suffer from acid bleed - not that that makes any difference to the way they play. Just another observation.
P.S. Update - apparently I have a very odd King 4B...
I have a 1YM and a 2GM. The 2 is unsoldered bead, gold brass on a reg. weight .508 slide and I play it on 6-ish m'pces, the 1 is soldered bead yellow brass, gold plated on a .500 reg weight slide played on 11-ish/7-ish m'pces. I set them up to play very differently...the 1 is a dedicated lead horn on which I can happily solo in most circumstances and the 2 is a dedicated solo horn on which I can play lead or section work fairly happily. The 1 favors more...oh, say Urbie Green/Al Grey acoustic, projecting playing...and the 2 favors a more J.J.-like style...still strong but a little more subtle in its attacks, formants and nuances.
BillO pretty much pins the differences above in terms of attack and flexibility/slotting. I am not as familiar w/the 2s + 8s, but i think the soldered/unsoldered difference is fairly consistent throughout the trombone world.
Later...
S.
P.S. Of course...the rest of the setup has a lot to do with things as well.
The 7's are soldered bead bells, the 2's and 8's are unsoldered bead. For me an unsoldered bead, like a [s]King 4B or[/s] Conn 88H will have more responsive articulation than a soldered bead. They play delicately more easily than the soldered ones. As well a soldered bead bell will generally hold their characteristic tone over a much broader dynamic range. They don't 'light up' as early as an unsoldered bell. The soldered bead bell tends to slot a little more deeply for me. I find these general characteristics true of any soldered vs. unsoldered bead horns, no matter what the make or material. Think Bach 42B vs Conn 88H.
I don't know what specifically is different between a 2 and an 8 though, other than the way the 2 pieces are put together.
p.s. I have never known a unsolderd bead bell to suffer from acid bleed - not that that makes any difference to the way they play. Just another observation.
P.S. Update - apparently I have a very odd King 4B...
I have a 1YM and a 2GM. The 2 is unsoldered bead, gold brass on a reg. weight .508 slide and I play it on 6-ish m'pces, the 1 is soldered bead yellow brass, gold plated on a .500 reg weight slide played on 11-ish/7-ish m'pces. I set them up to play very differently...the 1 is a dedicated lead horn on which I can happily solo in most circumstances and the 2 is a dedicated solo horn on which I can play lead or section work fairly happily. The 1 favors more...oh, say Urbie Green/Al Grey acoustic, projecting playing...and the 2 favors a more J.J.-like style...still strong but a little more subtle in its attacks, formants and nuances.
BillO pretty much pins the differences above in terms of attack and flexibility/slotting. I am not as familiar w/the 2s + 8s, but i think the soldered/unsoldered difference is fairly consistent throughout the trombone world.
Later...
S.
P.S. Of course...the rest of the setup has a lot to do with things as well.
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ttf_Duffle
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
My main focus was on the 7 and 8 red bells and how they compare with other Shires red bells. They don't seem to be as popular as the 7 Y and G models or some of the other red bells. I was wonder why that might be and what their playing characteristics might be. I know solder in the rim makes a difference but why for example are folks playing the 2RVE more then the 7RLW or 8RLW?.....
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ttf_BillO
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Duffle on Apr 09, 2017, 08:40AMMy main focus was on the 7 and 8 red bells and how they compare with other Shires red bells. They don't seem to be as popular as the 7 Y and G models or some of the other red bells. I was wonder why that might be and what their playing characteristics might be. I know solder in the rim makes a difference but why for example are folks playing the 2RVE more then the 7RLW or 8RLW?.....
Ahhh, that I cannot help with. Ben?
Ahhh, that I cannot help with. Ben?
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Duffle on Apr 09, 2017, 08:40AMMy main focus was on the 7 and 8 red bells and how they compare with other Shires red bells. They don't seem to be as popular as the 7 Y and G models or some of the other red bells. I was wonder why that might be and what their playing characteristics might be. I know solder in the rim makes a difference but why for example are folks playing the 2RVE more then the 7RLW or 8RLW?.....
Maybe because the 2RVE has playing characteristics that are more like classic pre-WWII/post-WWII red brass Conns...especially the .525 + .547 Conns of that era...than any other horn that has been on the modern market except perhaps some of Gary Greenhoe's designs?
People who grew up playing horns like that...myself included...fell in love with their sound and response characteristics. There were problems with the horns as venues got bigger and orchestras got...I guess "blattier" would fill the bill...but both Gary Greenhoe and Steve Shires seemed to find ways to calm them down a little when pushed.
That's my take on it, anyway.
S.
Maybe because the 2RVE has playing characteristics that are more like classic pre-WWII/post-WWII red brass Conns...especially the .525 + .547 Conns of that era...than any other horn that has been on the modern market except perhaps some of Gary Greenhoe's designs?
People who grew up playing horns like that...myself included...fell in love with their sound and response characteristics. There were problems with the horns as venues got bigger and orchestras got...I guess "blattier" would fill the bill...but both Gary Greenhoe and Steve Shires seemed to find ways to calm them down a little when pushed.
That's my take on it, anyway.
S.
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Duffle on Apr 09, 2017, 08:40AMMy main focus was on the 7 and 8 red bells and how they compare with other Shires red bells. They don't seem to be as popular as the 7 Y and G models or some of the other red bells. I was wonder why that might be and what their playing characteristics might be. I know solder in the rim makes a difference but why for example are folks playing the 2RVE more then the 7RLW or 8RLW?.....
Generally speaking, red bells have a much more flexible timbre that is less stable than either yellow brass (which has more high overtones in the sound at low dynamics but changes very progressively as intensity and volume increases) or gold brass (which has more emphasis on lower overtones and shifts to upper overtones more slowly, but in a way that shifts middle overtones up while retaining a low overtone, giving it that characteristic gold brass "buzz" at louder dynamics).
Red brass can be both darker sounding than gold brass and brighter sounding than yellow brass, depending on player input and the set up it's paired with. The Ralph Sauer bell is a a red brass type 7 bell, and many people adore it. The 2RVE also remains extremely popular. (Full disclosure: I have one of each bell, I am a red brass fan). The colors you can get our of red brass are unlike either of the other two offerings, extremely flexible and expressive.
The differences between the 2RVE and 7RLW are about what you'd expect. The 2RVE is more flexible, a bit wider sounding, easier to articulate but doesn't quite have the same focus as a soldered bell. The 7RLW is more progressive and "held together" in it's shifts, moving more progressively. It channels more sound forward than a 2RVE, which is a bit wider sounding.
Most people opt for a type 2 bell if they choose unsoldered. The type 8 are thinned more toward the edge of the bell and it looses some core and centering properties. We generally only recommend type 8 bells for people that have very focused sounds that want to soften. They were quite popular for a short while, but with the resurgence of brilliance being acceptable in classical sounds they are less popular than the type 2. (These observations also apply to type 6 bells, only more so).
I believe (my observations) red brass is out of many people's concept of the current american interpretation of western classical music. (Our red bells are extremely popular in Europe). It requires a firmer hand on the tiller to keep from getting too bright when pushing extreme loud dynamics; it seem more people prefer the stability and low dynamic brilliance of yellow brass or the timbral stability of gold brass.
I hope this helps, red bells are a great option and we happily make them for anyone that would like them.
Ben
Generally speaking, red bells have a much more flexible timbre that is less stable than either yellow brass (which has more high overtones in the sound at low dynamics but changes very progressively as intensity and volume increases) or gold brass (which has more emphasis on lower overtones and shifts to upper overtones more slowly, but in a way that shifts middle overtones up while retaining a low overtone, giving it that characteristic gold brass "buzz" at louder dynamics).
Red brass can be both darker sounding than gold brass and brighter sounding than yellow brass, depending on player input and the set up it's paired with. The Ralph Sauer bell is a a red brass type 7 bell, and many people adore it. The 2RVE also remains extremely popular. (Full disclosure: I have one of each bell, I am a red brass fan). The colors you can get our of red brass are unlike either of the other two offerings, extremely flexible and expressive.
The differences between the 2RVE and 7RLW are about what you'd expect. The 2RVE is more flexible, a bit wider sounding, easier to articulate but doesn't quite have the same focus as a soldered bell. The 7RLW is more progressive and "held together" in it's shifts, moving more progressively. It channels more sound forward than a 2RVE, which is a bit wider sounding.
Most people opt for a type 2 bell if they choose unsoldered. The type 8 are thinned more toward the edge of the bell and it looses some core and centering properties. We generally only recommend type 8 bells for people that have very focused sounds that want to soften. They were quite popular for a short while, but with the resurgence of brilliance being acceptable in classical sounds they are less popular than the type 2. (These observations also apply to type 6 bells, only more so).
I believe (my observations) red brass is out of many people's concept of the current american interpretation of western classical music. (Our red bells are extremely popular in Europe). It requires a firmer hand on the tiller to keep from getting too bright when pushing extreme loud dynamics; it seem more people prefer the stability and low dynamic brilliance of yellow brass or the timbral stability of gold brass.
I hope this helps, red bells are a great option and we happily make them for anyone that would like them.
Ben
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ttf_MikeBMiller
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Sorry if this has already been asked, but are there any plans to do a Q series small bore horn?
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ttf_Willy de Woofer
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Dear Sir. I send an email to Shires but got no reaction till now!? So I ask the question directly to you. I really like my two Conn 6H bones from around 1960. I like them more than my custom Edwards Jazz. Before that I played big horns like King 5B, Bach 42, etc.
I studied classical trombone at a Conservatory. Once I played at a very old King 2B Silversonic and was also great for me.
Two weeks ago I met the Shires dealer in the Netherlands. He invited me to try Shires small bore. Can you give me an advice about the configuration in front? Thanks a lot for your help. p.s. maybe you can look in my topic "from 5B to 2B in 40 years"?
I studied classical trombone at a Conservatory. Once I played at a very old King 2B Silversonic and was also great for me.
Two weeks ago I met the Shires dealer in the Netherlands. He invited me to try Shires small bore. Can you give me an advice about the configuration in front? Thanks a lot for your help. p.s. maybe you can look in my topic "from 5B to 2B in 40 years"?
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: MikeBMiller on Apr 24, 2017, 02:27PMSorry if this has already been asked, but are there any plans to do a Q series small bore horn?
Stay tuned...
Stay tuned...
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 24, 2017, 11:04PMDear Sir. I send an email to Shires but got no reaction till now!? So I ask the question directly to you. I really like my two Conn 6H bones from around 1960. I like them more than my custom Edwards Jazz. Before that I played big horns like King 5B, Bach 42, etc.
I studied classical trombone at a Conservatory. Once I played at a very old King 2B Silversonic and was also great for me.
Two weeks ago I met the Shires dealer in the Netherlands. He invited me to try Shires small bore. Can you give me an advice about the configuration in front? Thanks a lot for your help. p.s. maybe you can look in my topic "from 5B to 2B in 40 years"?
Hello Willy,
I'm sorry you didn't receive our reply, I remember answering the question personally. Perhaps it went in your spam folder. In either event, please email me directly: [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I will be sure to get back to you.
reading your post here I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I would need to know more about the Shires trombones you tried in the Netherlands (which models) and what you thought about them.
If you are looking for an instrument like a mid-60's 6H, might I recommend the following specs:
Bell: 2YLW 8 or 2YM T8 8
Tuning Slide: SY1.5 or SY1.0
Slide: T00LW or T00
I hope this is helpful, I will look for your email to [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] soon
-Ben
I studied classical trombone at a Conservatory. Once I played at a very old King 2B Silversonic and was also great for me.
Two weeks ago I met the Shires dealer in the Netherlands. He invited me to try Shires small bore. Can you give me an advice about the configuration in front? Thanks a lot for your help. p.s. maybe you can look in my topic "from 5B to 2B in 40 years"?
Hello Willy,
I'm sorry you didn't receive our reply, I remember answering the question personally. Perhaps it went in your spam folder. In either event, please email me directly: [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I will be sure to get back to you.
reading your post here I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I would need to know more about the Shires trombones you tried in the Netherlands (which models) and what you thought about them.
If you are looking for an instrument like a mid-60's 6H, might I recommend the following specs:
Bell: 2YLW 8 or 2YM T8 8
Tuning Slide: SY1.5 or SY1.0
Slide: T00LW or T00
I hope this is helpful, I will look for your email to [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] soon
-Ben
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ttf_Willy de Woofer
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Apr 25, 2017, 12:14PMHello Willy,
I'm sorry you didn't receive our reply, I remember answering the question personally. Perhaps it went in your spam folder. In either event, please email me directly: [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I will be sure to get back to you.
reading your post here I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I would need to know more about the Shires trombones you tried in the Netherlands (which models) and what you thought about them.
If you are looking for an instrument like a mid-60's 6H, might I recommend the following specs:
Bell: 2YLW 8 or 2YM T8 8
Tuning Slide: SY1.5 or SY1.0
Slide: T00LW or T00
I hope this is helpful, I will look for your email to [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] soon
-Ben
Dear Ben,
Thanks a lot for your answer. Probably something went wrong with the email. No problem. I'll try to send it again and to the adress you mention.
About the bones: I never played any Shires before. I am looking for an even more sonorous sound and less effort in playing. I am now 61 years old. I only teach and conduct, so don't play in an orchestra.
Kind regards, Wil
I'm sorry you didn't receive our reply, I remember answering the question personally. Perhaps it went in your spam folder. In either event, please email me directly: [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I will be sure to get back to you.
reading your post here I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I would need to know more about the Shires trombones you tried in the Netherlands (which models) and what you thought about them.
If you are looking for an instrument like a mid-60's 6H, might I recommend the following specs:
Bell: 2YLW 8 or 2YM T8 8
Tuning Slide: SY1.5 or SY1.0
Slide: T00LW or T00
I hope this is helpful, I will look for your email to [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] soon
-Ben
Dear Ben,
Thanks a lot for your answer. Probably something went wrong with the email. No problem. I'll try to send it again and to the adress you mention.
About the bones: I never played any Shires before. I am looking for an even more sonorous sound and less effort in playing. I am now 61 years old. I only teach and conduct, so don't play in an orchestra.
Kind regards, Wil
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ttf_Mark LaFratta
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Sauer model
MJL
MJL
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ttf_kfdz277
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 25, 2017, 02:01PMDear Ben,
Thanks a lot for your answer. Probably something went wrong with the email. No problem. I'll try to send it again and to the adress you mention.
About the bones: I never played any Shires before. I am looking for an even more sonorous sound and less effort in playing. I am now 61 years old. I only teach and conduct, so don't play in an orchestra.
Kind regards, Wil
Hello Wil,
Thank you for the clarification. My best advice would be to get to a well stocked dealer and sample a variety of instruments. "More sound for less effort" is a hallmark of all of our instruments, no matter what the bore size is. If you have specific questions after that, or are looking for a particular characteristic that you did not find in what you tried, I'll be better able to make some more specific recommendations. You can email me directly at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] at that time and we can discuss.
Ben
Thanks a lot for your answer. Probably something went wrong with the email. No problem. I'll try to send it again and to the adress you mention.
About the bones: I never played any Shires before. I am looking for an even more sonorous sound and less effort in playing. I am now 61 years old. I only teach and conduct, so don't play in an orchestra.
Kind regards, Wil
Hello Wil,
Thank you for the clarification. My best advice would be to get to a well stocked dealer and sample a variety of instruments. "More sound for less effort" is a hallmark of all of our instruments, no matter what the bore size is. If you have specific questions after that, or are looking for a particular characteristic that you did not find in what you tried, I'll be better able to make some more specific recommendations. You can email me directly at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] at that time and we can discuss.
Ben
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ttf_Willy de Woofer
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Apr 26, 2017, 06:24AMHello Wil,
Thank you for the clarification. My best advice would be to get to a well stocked dealer and sample a variety of instruments. "More sound for less effort" is a hallmark of all of our instruments, no matter what the bore size is. If you have specific questions after that, or are looking for a particular characteristic that you did not find in what you tried, I'll be better able to make some more specific recommendations. You can email me directly at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] at that time and we can discuss.
Ben
Dear Ben,
I will visit a dealer soon. Thanks for your kind reactions.
Regards, Wil
Thank you for the clarification. My best advice would be to get to a well stocked dealer and sample a variety of instruments. "More sound for less effort" is a hallmark of all of our instruments, no matter what the bore size is. If you have specific questions after that, or are looking for a particular characteristic that you did not find in what you tried, I'll be better able to make some more specific recommendations. You can email me directly at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] at that time and we can discuss.
Ben
Dear Ben,
I will visit a dealer soon. Thanks for your kind reactions.
Regards, Wil
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ttf_wgwbassbone
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Willy de Woofer
One of my favorite Forum names.
One of my favorite Forum names.
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ttf_Dennis Clason
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Ben,
I've got a 1972 36B that I like a lot, but it's losing plating on the inner slide stockings and the slide is generally showing its age despite an overhaul a few years back. I'm thinking pretty seriously about replacing/adding a Shires slide to it, probably a 2547. My playing with this horn is mostly 1st part in brass band and (large) concert bands. I'm currently using an Elliott XT103.D.D4 setup.
1. Will I have to replace the slide receiver? Ideally, I'd like to be able to continue to use the Bach's original slide when I want to use it.
2. Is this likely to work out well, or should I stick with a straight .525 slide?
Thanks in advance.
I've got a 1972 36B that I like a lot, but it's losing plating on the inner slide stockings and the slide is generally showing its age despite an overhaul a few years back. I'm thinking pretty seriously about replacing/adding a Shires slide to it, probably a 2547. My playing with this horn is mostly 1st part in brass band and (large) concert bands. I'm currently using an Elliott XT103.D.D4 setup.
1. Will I have to replace the slide receiver? Ideally, I'd like to be able to continue to use the Bach's original slide when I want to use it.
2. Is this likely to work out well, or should I stick with a straight .525 slide?
Thanks in advance.
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ttf_TNTBONE
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Dennis, I'm not Ben, but I have been thru a similar configuration. Currently I use a Shires .525 nickel slide with my 36G bell section. The Shires "fits" most of the time, but isn't secure enough for regular use. I measured a Bach 42 slide tenon with the thought of swapping slide tenons, and the inner diameter of the Bach tenon is slightly smaller that the outside diameter of the slide tube on the Shires, so it is not a direct fit. I am told that Shires makes a Bach tenon for their slides and I'm sure that Ben can weigh in on that.. Hope this helps.. Greg
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Dennis Clason on Apr 26, 2017, 07:23AMBen,
I've got a 1972 36B that I like a lot, but it's losing plating on the inner slide stockings and the slide is generally showing its age despite an overhaul a few years back. I'm thinking pretty seriously about replacing/adding a Shires slide to it, probably a 2547. My playing with this horn is mostly 1st part in brass band and (large) concert bands. I'm currently using an Elliott XT103.D.D4 setup.
1. Will I have to replace the slide receiver? Ideally, I'd like to be able to continue to use the Bach's original slide when I want to use it.
2. Is this likely to work out well, or should I stick with a straight .525 slide?
Thanks in advance.
We've had a lot of people use our large bore and bass slides with different brands but few with medium bore. I'd like to know a little more about what particular characteristics you are looking for out of a new slide and what you both like and dislike about your current set-up before making a recommendation in this particular instance.
I will provide some general information here for the greater good regarding this type of thing.
My first piece advice is always: beware. When starting to swap pieces and parts between different manufacturers there is always potential for some adverse side effects or results, simply because the parts were not designed to be used together int he first place. It's like dropping a Honda Accord V6 into a Toyota Camry but wanting to use the Toyota transmission.
The bell receiver/threaded tenon (slide side) is a separate part that can easily be swapped out to a 50/42/36 part. There is no "Bach compatible" part that we manufacture at the factory, it can only be done aftermarket. The lower inner tube extends into this piece and our slide tube length and Bach slide tube length is different, though I am not sure whether ours is longer or shorter off the top of my head right now.
Bach slide length is longer than Shires by 3/8", on bass, large bore, and medium bore models. If you would like similar tuning, we usually recommend opting for an "L" (long) slide, which is a factory option for wide slides only. Long slides tend to feel a little more "locked in" to the harmonic series. Standard length slides move a little more easier through the harmonic series.
Similarly, our standard width slides are narrower than both 42 and 36 bore instruments. These are already "L"/long slide to compensate for the overall lengths lost from the narrow width. They are not available with a further "L"/Long option.
Our "W"/Wide slides largely compare Bach large and medium bore instruments. If you are looking for a replacement as close to a 36 I would recommend this, though our slide does play differently than a 36. This slide works extremely well with the large shank MT receiver leadpipes, making it more open and more like a little big horn.
Our 1.5 venturi leadpipes are most similar to standard leadpipes on a 50/42/36.
I hope this information is helpful.
Ben
I've got a 1972 36B that I like a lot, but it's losing plating on the inner slide stockings and the slide is generally showing its age despite an overhaul a few years back. I'm thinking pretty seriously about replacing/adding a Shires slide to it, probably a 2547. My playing with this horn is mostly 1st part in brass band and (large) concert bands. I'm currently using an Elliott XT103.D.D4 setup.
1. Will I have to replace the slide receiver? Ideally, I'd like to be able to continue to use the Bach's original slide when I want to use it.
2. Is this likely to work out well, or should I stick with a straight .525 slide?
Thanks in advance.
We've had a lot of people use our large bore and bass slides with different brands but few with medium bore. I'd like to know a little more about what particular characteristics you are looking for out of a new slide and what you both like and dislike about your current set-up before making a recommendation in this particular instance.
I will provide some general information here for the greater good regarding this type of thing.
My first piece advice is always: beware. When starting to swap pieces and parts between different manufacturers there is always potential for some adverse side effects or results, simply because the parts were not designed to be used together int he first place. It's like dropping a Honda Accord V6 into a Toyota Camry but wanting to use the Toyota transmission.
The bell receiver/threaded tenon (slide side) is a separate part that can easily be swapped out to a 50/42/36 part. There is no "Bach compatible" part that we manufacture at the factory, it can only be done aftermarket. The lower inner tube extends into this piece and our slide tube length and Bach slide tube length is different, though I am not sure whether ours is longer or shorter off the top of my head right now.
Bach slide length is longer than Shires by 3/8", on bass, large bore, and medium bore models. If you would like similar tuning, we usually recommend opting for an "L" (long) slide, which is a factory option for wide slides only. Long slides tend to feel a little more "locked in" to the harmonic series. Standard length slides move a little more easier through the harmonic series.
Similarly, our standard width slides are narrower than both 42 and 36 bore instruments. These are already "L"/long slide to compensate for the overall lengths lost from the narrow width. They are not available with a further "L"/Long option.
Our "W"/Wide slides largely compare Bach large and medium bore instruments. If you are looking for a replacement as close to a 36 I would recommend this, though our slide does play differently than a 36. This slide works extremely well with the large shank MT receiver leadpipes, making it more open and more like a little big horn.
Our 1.5 venturi leadpipes are most similar to standard leadpipes on a 50/42/36.
I hope this information is helpful.
Ben
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ttf_Willy de Woofer
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: wgwbassbone on Apr 26, 2017, 06:54AM Willy de Woofer
One of my favorite Forum names.
Hah, hah. This name I used at Audio/Hifi Stereo equipment. My other name was Pieter the Tweeter. Just having fun
One of my favorite Forum names.
Hah, hah. This name I used at Audio/Hifi Stereo equipment. My other name was Pieter the Tweeter. Just having fun
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ttf_tbathras
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Hi Ben -
I've acquired a B1.5NL leadpipe, which I like, but have a question - would you expect a mouthpiece to go in not as far in one of these? Mine sits about 1/8" to 3/16" further out than it does in my B2. However the seating is stable - no wobble. Is this a typical variance? I made sure that the receiver is clean. This pipe does have the threads removed (it't a Shires collar, though, for sure) so I have a feeling it's been tinkered with, though, and that might be the reason.
Thanks!
Tim
I've acquired a B1.5NL leadpipe, which I like, but have a question - would you expect a mouthpiece to go in not as far in one of these? Mine sits about 1/8" to 3/16" further out than it does in my B2. However the seating is stable - no wobble. Is this a typical variance? I made sure that the receiver is clean. This pipe does have the threads removed (it't a Shires collar, though, for sure) so I have a feeling it's been tinkered with, though, and that might be the reason.
Thanks!
Tim
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ttf_griffinben
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: tbathras on Apr 29, 2017, 04:35PMHi Ben -
I've acquired a B1.5NL leadpipe, which I like, but have a question - would you expect a mouthpiece to go in not as far in one of these? Mine sits about 1/8" to 3/16" further out than it does in my B2. However the seating is stable - no wobble. Is this a typical variance? I made sure that the receiver is clean. This pipe does have the threads removed (it't a Shires collar, though, for sure) so I have a feeling it's been tinkered with, though, and that might be the reason.
Thanks!
Tim
Hi Tim,
Once a leadpipe (or anything) has been modified all bets are off as to factory spec anymore. The good news is that the mouthpiece sits cleanly, which means at least it's interfacing correctly. Length of a "long" leadpipes should be 9 3/4".
There is some variation in leadpipe depth. There was a time that the depths started backing out within what you quoted. We changed the spec maybe 1 1/2-2 years ago. It could be you have a leadpipe from that time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to Shanghai a response with something related but different...
The opposite of this, a leadpipe fitting further in than it initially did, can be caused by twisting the mouthpiece excessively while applying downward force when inserting it into the receiver. This habit, from our earliest days of trombonists, no doubt, will eventually stretch the metal, causing the mouthpiece to sink deeper and deeper. A light twist (no pressure) is all that is needed to seat the mouthpiece into the receiver.
Ben
I've acquired a B1.5NL leadpipe, which I like, but have a question - would you expect a mouthpiece to go in not as far in one of these? Mine sits about 1/8" to 3/16" further out than it does in my B2. However the seating is stable - no wobble. Is this a typical variance? I made sure that the receiver is clean. This pipe does have the threads removed (it't a Shires collar, though, for sure) so I have a feeling it's been tinkered with, though, and that might be the reason.
Thanks!
Tim
Hi Tim,
Once a leadpipe (or anything) has been modified all bets are off as to factory spec anymore. The good news is that the mouthpiece sits cleanly, which means at least it's interfacing correctly. Length of a "long" leadpipes should be 9 3/4".
There is some variation in leadpipe depth. There was a time that the depths started backing out within what you quoted. We changed the spec maybe 1 1/2-2 years ago. It could be you have a leadpipe from that time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to Shanghai a response with something related but different...
The opposite of this, a leadpipe fitting further in than it initially did, can be caused by twisting the mouthpiece excessively while applying downward force when inserting it into the receiver. This habit, from our earliest days of trombonists, no doubt, will eventually stretch the metal, causing the mouthpiece to sink deeper and deeper. A light twist (no pressure) is all that is needed to seat the mouthpiece into the receiver.
Ben
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ttf_tbathras
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Thanks for the info!
I might want to come down sometime soon and test out some leadpipes... perhaps at the factory day coming up. I assume you have quite a wide stock to test from?
Thanks,
Tim
I might want to come down sometime soon and test out some leadpipes... perhaps at the factory day coming up. I assume you have quite a wide stock to test from?
Thanks,
Tim
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ttf_tbarh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Hello , Ben ! 
I would like to have some numbers on the new mouthpieces, please !
Inner rim diameters and throat bore sizes on the 2G, 2MD, 1 1/2G and 1 1/2MD,D, and XD ..
Thanks !
Trond
I would like to have some numbers on the new mouthpieces, please !
Inner rim diameters and throat bore sizes on the 2G, 2MD, 1 1/2G and 1 1/2MD,D, and XD ..
Thanks !
Trond
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ttf_griffinben
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: tbarh on Jun 01, 2017, 03:58AMHello , Ben !
I would like to have some numbers on the new mouthpieces, please !
Inner rim diameters and throat bore sizes on the 2G, 2MD, 1 1/2G and 1 1/2MD,D, and XD ..
Thanks !
Trond
Hello Trond,
You had written me via email but will post my answer here as well for the greater good.:
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ _______________________________
Hello Trond,
Thank you for your message, our mouthpiece specifications for the sizes you inquired about are as follows:
I would like to have some numbers on the new mouthpieces, please !
Inner rim diameters and throat bore sizes on the 2G, 2MD, 1 1/2G and 1 1/2MD,D, and XD ..
Thanks !
Trond
Hello Trond,
You had written me via email but will post my answer here as well for the greater good.:
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ _______________________________
Hello Trond,
Thank you for your message, our mouthpiece specifications for the sizes you inquired about are as follows:
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ttf_tbathras
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Since we're on mp specs...
What are the specs on the 1MD?
Thanks,
Tim
What are the specs on the 1MD?
Thanks,
Tim
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ttf_Matt K
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Ben,
Any chance we could order underparts threaded for particular rims?
-Matt
Any chance we could order underparts threaded for particular rims?
-Matt
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ttf_griffinben
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: Matt K on Jun 01, 2017, 07:03AMBen,
Any chance we could order underparts threaded for particular rims?
-Matt
No. You would need to contact someone else to do the threading for whatever rim you wanted.
-Ben
Any chance we could order underparts threaded for particular rims?
-Matt
No. You would need to contact someone else to do the threading for whatever rim you wanted.
-Ben
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ttf_Matt K
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: griffinben on Jun 01, 2017, 10:38AMNo. You would need to contact someone else to do the threading for whatever rim you wanted.
-Ben
Ben,
Totally understand. Decisions, decisions!
-Matt
-Ben
Ben,
Totally understand. Decisions, decisions!
-Matt
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ttf_mr.deacon
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Just a couple questions regarding weight of a bell.
First question... I have a BI2T7 bell aka the Conn 62Hish bell. So the weight on a BI2T7 is regular but which is thinned out with the T7 treatment, correct? This is a older bell from around 2010ish.
Second question... Would it be possible to order a LW or M bell with the T7 treatment? Maybe something like a BI2T7LW?
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
First question... I have a BI2T7 bell aka the Conn 62Hish bell. So the weight on a BI2T7 is regular but which is thinned out with the T7 treatment, correct? This is a older bell from around 2010ish.
Second question... Would it be possible to order a LW or M bell with the T7 treatment? Maybe something like a BI2T7LW?
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
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ttf_sabutin
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Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 23, 2017, 12:18AMJust a couple questions regarding weight of a bell.
---snip---
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
This is a difficult question to answer. I have put together six different horns at Shires and played all sorts of bells in the process. There are so many interactions going on, so many variables in the bell alone...alloys, soldered or unsoldered beads, bell diameters and so on. Instead of speaking about frequencies, I would say very generally that lighter bells change the mass of the sound, especially as the volumes increase. The mid-range, mid-volume mass...the characteristic sound of the horn, its sonic "weight"...changes as it is played louder. It becomes less "massy," maybe a little more dispersed than a regular weight bell up to a given volume point. Then it begins to overblow. The attacks change, too. The are less aggressive, more like the rest of the note.
For me, there seems to be a happy medium. Too heavy and too light both restrict the ability to color the sound, which is important for a soloist or a lead player as far as I am concerned...for a bass trombonist as well. Attacks have a lot to do with this. Too heavy a bell produces a sort of "thud" on strong attacks and too light a bell seems not to produce enough snap...at least until it is really pushed, when it snaps too much. Also, really light bells tend to get nasty when pushed too hard.
That said...different strokes for different folks, and for different idioms and ensemble styles as well. I play mostly in NYC jazz and latin style large ensembles. If I was playing in lighter styles...Broadway, say, or a lot of chamber music...a lighter bell might be just the ticket.
There is no substitute for hands-on experimentation. I went into this modular process with no real idea about what does what, just an idea about how I wanted to sound. I blindfold tested equipment, and what felt good was what I chose.
What felt good for me, and what felt good for how an individual horn was going to be used.
I hope that helps.
Later...
S.
---snip---
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
This is a difficult question to answer. I have put together six different horns at Shires and played all sorts of bells in the process. There are so many interactions going on, so many variables in the bell alone...alloys, soldered or unsoldered beads, bell diameters and so on. Instead of speaking about frequencies, I would say very generally that lighter bells change the mass of the sound, especially as the volumes increase. The mid-range, mid-volume mass...the characteristic sound of the horn, its sonic "weight"...changes as it is played louder. It becomes less "massy," maybe a little more dispersed than a regular weight bell up to a given volume point. Then it begins to overblow. The attacks change, too. The are less aggressive, more like the rest of the note.
For me, there seems to be a happy medium. Too heavy and too light both restrict the ability to color the sound, which is important for a soloist or a lead player as far as I am concerned...for a bass trombonist as well. Attacks have a lot to do with this. Too heavy a bell produces a sort of "thud" on strong attacks and too light a bell seems not to produce enough snap...at least until it is really pushed, when it snaps too much. Also, really light bells tend to get nasty when pushed too hard.
That said...different strokes for different folks, and for different idioms and ensemble styles as well. I play mostly in NYC jazz and latin style large ensembles. If I was playing in lighter styles...Broadway, say, or a lot of chamber music...a lighter bell might be just the ticket.
There is no substitute for hands-on experimentation. I went into this modular process with no real idea about what does what, just an idea about how I wanted to sound. I blindfold tested equipment, and what felt good was what I chose.
What felt good for me, and what felt good for how an individual horn was going to be used.
I hope that helps.
Later...
S.
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ttf_griffinben
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 23, 2017, 12:18AMJust a couple questions regarding weight of a bell.
First question... I have a BI2T7 bell aka the Conn 62Hish bell. So the weight on a BI2T7 is regular but which is thinned out with the T7 treatment, correct? This is a older bell from around 2010ish.
Second question... Would it be possible to order a LW or M bell with the T7 treatment? Maybe something like a BI2T7LW?
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
The T7 treatment affects the weight at the edge of the bell. Most of our bells come standard with a T9 treatment, and progressively get lighter through a T8 and then T7 (lightest) treatment. It is available on any custom bell. The T7 is most similar to What Conn was doing in the early-mid 60's.
In general, the T7 gives a slightly faster response and more expansive feel without altering the core qualities that come with the particular weight of the bell.
In very general terms, I think of weight as a trade-off between stability and color. The heavier a bell is the more stable it is, however it is more difficult to color the timbre beyond it's core center. The lighter a bell is the more timbral colors are available, however it is less stable in it's color and requires more stability on the part of the player.
We've seen this play out it he last 20 years as we've moved from a darker, more stable sound of the 90's and early 2000's to the more acceptable brilliance we are hearing more and more of. This is reflected in our weight designations; when Steve started making instruments under his own name in 1995, the standard weight was relatively heavy. The weights get progressively lighter, with medium and light. There is a heavy weight option, one that we rarely get requests for these days (I can't remember the last one we made new). Since then, people have progressively moved to lighter bells in all styles of playing. Our lightweight and medium weight bells are the most popular in large tenor.
The idea of quicker response can be a bit of a misnomer. We, as a brass playing community, often pair the idea of response with snap, or brilliance coming off the initiation of the attack or beginning of the note. If this is our standard, a heavier bell is definitely less responsive than a light one. However, and it's a big "however", if our idea is simply that the instrument speaks immediately after input, and the sound one wants is a big open, less brilliant sound, a heavier bell may feel more responsive, because it naturally will want to get that sound. It is important that we separate speed of response from color of response, and know what it is that we want to achieve.
As Sam said, there is generally a happy medium for people. Our lightweight and medium weight large/medium bore tenor bells are far and away the most popular. Extra lightweight and lightweight for small tenor. Bass are a bit different, with most people opting for medium or standard weight bells. I think a lot of this can point to the weight of a double valve section, which can translate more of the sound energy to the bell than on a single valve or straight tenor. This extra energy requires a slightly heavier bell to yield similar results as the tenors. What is right for you? Give us a call and we'll be glad to discuss.
I hope this helps. Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Ben
First question... I have a BI2T7 bell aka the Conn 62Hish bell. So the weight on a BI2T7 is regular but which is thinned out with the T7 treatment, correct? This is a older bell from around 2010ish.
Second question... Would it be possible to order a LW or M bell with the T7 treatment? Maybe something like a BI2T7LW?
Third question... Besides response differences does having a lighter bell effect the color of a horn? More high or low frequencies? ect...
The T7 treatment affects the weight at the edge of the bell. Most of our bells come standard with a T9 treatment, and progressively get lighter through a T8 and then T7 (lightest) treatment. It is available on any custom bell. The T7 is most similar to What Conn was doing in the early-mid 60's.
In general, the T7 gives a slightly faster response and more expansive feel without altering the core qualities that come with the particular weight of the bell.
In very general terms, I think of weight as a trade-off between stability and color. The heavier a bell is the more stable it is, however it is more difficult to color the timbre beyond it's core center. The lighter a bell is the more timbral colors are available, however it is less stable in it's color and requires more stability on the part of the player.
We've seen this play out it he last 20 years as we've moved from a darker, more stable sound of the 90's and early 2000's to the more acceptable brilliance we are hearing more and more of. This is reflected in our weight designations; when Steve started making instruments under his own name in 1995, the standard weight was relatively heavy. The weights get progressively lighter, with medium and light. There is a heavy weight option, one that we rarely get requests for these days (I can't remember the last one we made new). Since then, people have progressively moved to lighter bells in all styles of playing. Our lightweight and medium weight bells are the most popular in large tenor.
The idea of quicker response can be a bit of a misnomer. We, as a brass playing community, often pair the idea of response with snap, or brilliance coming off the initiation of the attack or beginning of the note. If this is our standard, a heavier bell is definitely less responsive than a light one. However, and it's a big "however", if our idea is simply that the instrument speaks immediately after input, and the sound one wants is a big open, less brilliant sound, a heavier bell may feel more responsive, because it naturally will want to get that sound. It is important that we separate speed of response from color of response, and know what it is that we want to achieve.
As Sam said, there is generally a happy medium for people. Our lightweight and medium weight large/medium bore tenor bells are far and away the most popular. Extra lightweight and lightweight for small tenor. Bass are a bit different, with most people opting for medium or standard weight bells. I think a lot of this can point to the weight of a double valve section, which can translate more of the sound energy to the bell than on a single valve or straight tenor. This extra energy requires a slightly heavier bell to yield similar results as the tenors. What is right for you? Give us a call and we'll be glad to discuss.
I hope this helps. Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Ben
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ttf_anonymous
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- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:09 pm
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Hi,
Being (mostly) a tuba player I rarely engage this fine community.
However I do do a lot of tenor trombone work in various bands rotating around the popular music circuit. 90% mic'ed.
I've come across the following for a VERY good price 2nd hand.
Shires
7YLW (8.5 inch) bell
Standard 0.547 inch slide
Tru-Bore valve
X-tra Goose neck and ts weight
Yellow brass tuning slide
Seller purchased it new in 2008ish
It's not exactly what I'm looking for but if it's a fine machine I'll buy it, if only to explore a Shires.
Until now I've been happiest on a .525 set-up and play a lot of various "roles" within the same band (2nd trumpet, bass bonish, etc).
I have a 78H with a meh slide.
Have a lovely (Bob) Williams 6 and an 88H.
My 88H has the best slide and I love having an F-att.for my "role" versatility.
(OK and a 70H)
Being that I do like the .525 side of life I'm scheming to purchase a .525 slide and possibly an 8" bell once I feel comfortable on this new (potential) horn. Financially it'll still be cheeper then a new set-up
assuming (and now the questions)
that the .525 hooks up with the valve set-up of the afore mentioned trombone (which if I understand correctly, it does).
But does it?
I'm also curious if the 7YLW is at all used in combi with a .525. I've often seen the 8" 2rve mentioned (though .525 doesn't seem to be that popular).
And lastly which three lead pipes would be good starters. I'm thinking maybe a small shank, a large shank and and maybe fake bass bone shank.
Thanks!!!
Being (mostly) a tuba player I rarely engage this fine community.
However I do do a lot of tenor trombone work in various bands rotating around the popular music circuit. 90% mic'ed.
I've come across the following for a VERY good price 2nd hand.
Shires
7YLW (8.5 inch) bell
Standard 0.547 inch slide
Tru-Bore valve
X-tra Goose neck and ts weight
Yellow brass tuning slide
Seller purchased it new in 2008ish
It's not exactly what I'm looking for but if it's a fine machine I'll buy it, if only to explore a Shires.
Until now I've been happiest on a .525 set-up and play a lot of various "roles" within the same band (2nd trumpet, bass bonish, etc).
I have a 78H with a meh slide.
Have a lovely (Bob) Williams 6 and an 88H.
My 88H has the best slide and I love having an F-att.for my "role" versatility.
(OK and a 70H)
Being that I do like the .525 side of life I'm scheming to purchase a .525 slide and possibly an 8" bell once I feel comfortable on this new (potential) horn. Financially it'll still be cheeper then a new set-up
assuming (and now the questions)
that the .525 hooks up with the valve set-up of the afore mentioned trombone (which if I understand correctly, it does).
But does it?
I'm also curious if the 7YLW is at all used in combi with a .525. I've often seen the 8" 2rve mentioned (though .525 doesn't seem to be that popular).
And lastly which three lead pipes would be good starters. I'm thinking maybe a small shank, a large shank and and maybe fake bass bone shank.
Thanks!!!
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ttf_modelerdc
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Your horn will work very well with a Shires .525 bore slide. I have a couple of shires large bores, one with the Vintage New York Bell, a regular 8 1/2 inch 2RVE bell, and an eight inch diameter 2RVE bell. All of these bells work fine with both the standard .547 slide and with the .525 slide. Yes the sound is a little more compact with the eight inch bell, and a little broader with the 8 1/2 inch bells. My way of thinking of it is the .525 slide with a 8 inch bell is like a big little horn, especially if played with a mouthpiece typical of a small tenor trombone. A great commmerical horn, for those situations that would call for one trombone only, or for musical pit work, solos etc. The .525 bore slide with one of the 8 1/2 inch bells plays like a scaled down big horn, especially is a somewhat large mouthpiece, such as a Bach 5GS is used. Great when you want a large bore sound, but more focus, efficient, and color than the typical large bore. The small bell with the large slide, or course plays well, but it's darker without being bigger, so I don't see much advantage. I use a Shires #2 pipe, which works great for me, but as with mouthpieces you might like one with more or less resistance. But that's a minor point, as the Shires slides come with three pipes. For the mike work you are doing, try a .525 bore slide, consider light weight, with the 8 inch 2RVE bell. It have this combo and it's a sweet one, clear colorful sound and easy to play!
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ttf_witboi
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Thanks for your input.
Leadpipes; so probably buy a #2 in M&MT?
Leadpipe length suggestions?
and I still get a third wish from the Leadpipe djinni.
Suggestions?
Obviously I'll try before I buy and I'll be limited to what's in stock. This not withstanding, I appreciate the input.
I've only purchased whole trombones in the past so I'm quite excited to find out what the effect of a type of leadpipe has out in the field.
Leadpipes; so probably buy a #2 in M&MT?
Leadpipe length suggestions?
and I still get a third wish from the Leadpipe djinni.
Suggestions?
Obviously I'll try before I buy and I'll be limited to what's in stock. This not withstanding, I appreciate the input.
I've only purchased whole trombones in the past so I'm quite excited to find out what the effect of a type of leadpipe has out in the field.
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ttf_sabutin
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: modelerdc on Jul 28, 2017, 10:18PM---snip---
My way of thinking of it is the .525 slide with a 8 inch bell is like a big little horn, especially if played with a mouthpiece typical of a small tenor trombone. A great commmerical horn, for those situations that would call for one trombone only, or for musical pit work, solos etc. The .525 bore slide with one of the 8 1/2 inch bells plays like a scaled down big horn, especially is a somewhat large mouthpiece, such as a Bach 5GS is used. Great when you want a large bore sound, but more focus, efficient, and color than the typical large bore. The small bell with the large slide, or course plays well, but it's darker without being bigger, so I don't see much advantage.
---snip---
Precisely my own approach...my Shires .525 is big small horn w/the 8" 2RVE bell and a small big horn with the 2RVE 8.5". I don't change m'pces on it because I have a .508 Shires that I use as sort of a "medium large" small bore, but in ensembles w/the .525 (My favorite horn, by far.)...usually on 3rd parts in 4 trombone sections...if I want to blend up (towards the tenor trombone and trumpets) and/or be heard easily as a soloist I use the 8" bell, but if I want to blend more down...with the bass tbn./tuba/baritone sax or if I am functioning as a bass voice myself sometimes in smaller ensembles...I use the 8.5 2RVE. I personally have not found the large shank m'pce/leadpipe route to be very successful, but then I have a .548 slide to use w/the 8.5" 2RVE that works very well as a true large bore horn.
As far as leadpipes go...that's up to you. You should try everything and use what works. For you. I'm a dedicated freebuzzer, so I can use wide-open leadpipes because I pretty much have control of the the resistance at the lips.
Others differ.
Widely.
Good luck...
S.
My way of thinking of it is the .525 slide with a 8 inch bell is like a big little horn, especially if played with a mouthpiece typical of a small tenor trombone. A great commmerical horn, for those situations that would call for one trombone only, or for musical pit work, solos etc. The .525 bore slide with one of the 8 1/2 inch bells plays like a scaled down big horn, especially is a somewhat large mouthpiece, such as a Bach 5GS is used. Great when you want a large bore sound, but more focus, efficient, and color than the typical large bore. The small bell with the large slide, or course plays well, but it's darker without being bigger, so I don't see much advantage.
---snip---
Precisely my own approach...my Shires .525 is big small horn w/the 8" 2RVE bell and a small big horn with the 2RVE 8.5". I don't change m'pces on it because I have a .508 Shires that I use as sort of a "medium large" small bore, but in ensembles w/the .525 (My favorite horn, by far.)...usually on 3rd parts in 4 trombone sections...if I want to blend up (towards the tenor trombone and trumpets) and/or be heard easily as a soloist I use the 8" bell, but if I want to blend more down...with the bass tbn./tuba/baritone sax or if I am functioning as a bass voice myself sometimes in smaller ensembles...I use the 8.5 2RVE. I personally have not found the large shank m'pce/leadpipe route to be very successful, but then I have a .548 slide to use w/the 8.5" 2RVE that works very well as a true large bore horn.
As far as leadpipes go...that's up to you. You should try everything and use what works. For you. I'm a dedicated freebuzzer, so I can use wide-open leadpipes because I pretty much have control of the the resistance at the lips.
Others differ.
Widely.
Good luck...
S.
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ttf_ntap
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I recently acquired a .500 S2 T7 horn with a yellow lightweight slide. I really like the instrument - there is a ton of warm, resonant core (something I feel differentiates Shires from other modern instrument makers), and the color is very malleable. If I go balls to the wall Willie Colon salsa slam, the horn brightens a bit too much for that style, but it's really at home anywhere else. I have used this horn playing quintets for a wedding ceremony, jazz for the cocktail hour, and then loud horn lines for the reception. Excellent in all areas. A great lead horn, too.
Ben's write up a few posts earlier is so on the money describing the variables of this bell. "Adds a faster response, more expansive feel without altering the core." I'll just add that from the Shires instruments I've played, this one has the greatest malleability of sound for what I do.
Ben's write up a few posts earlier is so on the money describing the variables of this bell. "Adds a faster response, more expansive feel without altering the core." I'll just add that from the Shires instruments I've played, this one has the greatest malleability of sound for what I do.
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ttf_witboi
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
and also Sam thank you for your time and wisdom!
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ttf_griffinben
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Hello Witboi,
Most of what you were asking was covered by the other posters so far, but to add a few thoughts...
First, all medium bore components are compatible with large bore components; you will have no trouble matching a .525 slide to that bell and valve section.
I do warn about matching narrow slides to Tru-Bore valves (and axial flow valves as well). Tru-bore valves extend wider than the neckpipe and can stick into one's neck. Many people (Sam included) play with a narrow slide but forewarned is forearmed. We do make a wide .525 slide that is more like Bach in width, but it does change the playing feel/characteristics. If you wind up purchasing a slide new please contact me at the factory and we can go through options.
As for leadpipes, in an ideal world we try everything, and if you can: do that! If not, we generally recommend people start with a #2 in any size. This is the middle of the road for our horns and the majority of our customers play this size. If you have general tendencies, smaller or larger, they are generally mirrored in the other bore sizes unless you are looking for a different feel. "M" leadpipes receive small shank mouthpieces, MT receive large shank mouthpieces.
I agree with what Sam said about bell sizes. I use both 8 and 8 1/2" bells with my .525 slide. I notice a big different in width of sound and density of tone. The 8 1/2" is wider in scope and I feel I can push to the timbre around more. There's more shoulder room to the blow. The 8" is more compact, taking all of that same sound of the 8 1/2" and bringing it in for more tone per cubic inch. The core is stronger and is less flexible to me face than the same 8 1/2" equivalent. This can by mitigated or amplified somewhat depending on the bell you choose. When that time approaches give me a call at the factory and we'll talk about it.
Ben
Most of what you were asking was covered by the other posters so far, but to add a few thoughts...
First, all medium bore components are compatible with large bore components; you will have no trouble matching a .525 slide to that bell and valve section.
I do warn about matching narrow slides to Tru-Bore valves (and axial flow valves as well). Tru-bore valves extend wider than the neckpipe and can stick into one's neck. Many people (Sam included) play with a narrow slide but forewarned is forearmed. We do make a wide .525 slide that is more like Bach in width, but it does change the playing feel/characteristics. If you wind up purchasing a slide new please contact me at the factory and we can go through options.
As for leadpipes, in an ideal world we try everything, and if you can: do that! If not, we generally recommend people start with a #2 in any size. This is the middle of the road for our horns and the majority of our customers play this size. If you have general tendencies, smaller or larger, they are generally mirrored in the other bore sizes unless you are looking for a different feel. "M" leadpipes receive small shank mouthpieces, MT receive large shank mouthpieces.
I agree with what Sam said about bell sizes. I use both 8 and 8 1/2" bells with my .525 slide. I notice a big different in width of sound and density of tone. The 8 1/2" is wider in scope and I feel I can push to the timbre around more. There's more shoulder room to the blow. The 8" is more compact, taking all of that same sound of the 8 1/2" and bringing it in for more tone per cubic inch. The core is stronger and is less flexible to me face than the same 8 1/2" equivalent. This can by mitigated or amplified somewhat depending on the bell you choose. When that time approaches give me a call at the factory and we'll talk about it.
Ben
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ttf_witboi
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Ben, also thank you for your response.
I've read a lot of these posts over the years but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
And yes, I was aware of the trubore wide slide combi, but thanks for the heads up.
As I live out in the Netherlands my immediate options are determined by the resources at hand.
So assuming I think there's some love between me the 2nd hand .547 7YLW trombone that's for sale, I'll of coarse first spend my time on this combi (and who knows, I may never want to change it).
If I do, right now at Adams they have a T25G and a TW25NLW plus a 2RVE, 8" in stock, so if I go for .525 and/or 8" I'll have to make do with these.
Thanks for your time and efforts and your open door policy.
I've read a lot of these posts over the years but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
And yes, I was aware of the trubore wide slide combi, but thanks for the heads up.
As I live out in the Netherlands my immediate options are determined by the resources at hand.
So assuming I think there's some love between me the 2nd hand .547 7YLW trombone that's for sale, I'll of coarse first spend my time on this combi (and who knows, I may never want to change it).
If I do, right now at Adams they have a T25G and a TW25NLW plus a 2RVE, 8" in stock, so if I go for .525 and/or 8" I'll have to make do with these.
Thanks for your time and efforts and your open door policy.
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ttf_The Bone Ranger
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
I'm fortunate enough to work for a band that has quite a number of Shires tenors available, but over the years, I've never really settled on a combination that floated my boat...
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
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ttf_griffinben
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Sep 05, 2017, 04:27AMI'm fortunate enough to work for a band that has quite a number of Shires tenors available, but over the years, I've never really settled on a combination that floated my boat...
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
I'm glad you found a bell and tuning slide combo that works well for you! The TII5YVNY bells is one of our most popular and fits very well for people coming from Bach instruments. It even works for a lot of people that never would have considered a Bach.
Smaller diameter bells tend to respond more thickly and densely than their larger counterparts; there's less splash to the sound and feel. I'd want to have a talk with whoever was looking into purchasing one prior to us making it, just to make sure we were all on the same page.
We have some prototype 1-piece bass bells that we have made. A couple of them are with an artist right now in the field. We've found that people are gravitating to a particular weight and treatment, so those will likely become regular production before too long. They are not exactly like Bach or VNY bells, a little wider sounding and feeling, and the response varies greatly depending on the horn it's set up around. Again, I'd like to talk with someone prior to them prior to order to make sure we are all on the same page.
I hope this helps, let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Ben
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
I'm glad you found a bell and tuning slide combo that works well for you! The TII5YVNY bells is one of our most popular and fits very well for people coming from Bach instruments. It even works for a lot of people that never would have considered a Bach.
Smaller diameter bells tend to respond more thickly and densely than their larger counterparts; there's less splash to the sound and feel. I'd want to have a talk with whoever was looking into purchasing one prior to us making it, just to make sure we were all on the same page.
We have some prototype 1-piece bass bells that we have made. A couple of them are with an artist right now in the field. We've found that people are gravitating to a particular weight and treatment, so those will likely become regular production before too long. They are not exactly like Bach or VNY bells, a little wider sounding and feeling, and the response varies greatly depending on the horn it's set up around. Again, I'd like to talk with someone prior to them prior to order to make sure we are all on the same page.
I hope this helps, let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Ben
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ttf_griffinben
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Sep 05, 2017, 04:27AMI'm fortunate enough to work for a band that has quite a number of Shires tenors available, but over the years, I've never really settled on a combination that floated my boat...
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
I'm glad you found a bell and tuning slide combo that works well for you! The TII5YVNY bells is one of our most popular and fits very well for people coming from Bach instruments. It even works for a lot of people that never would have considered a Bach.
Smaller diameter bells tend to respond more thickly and densely than their larger counterparts; there's less splash to the sound and feel. I'd want to have a talk with whoever was looking into purchasing one prior to us making it, just to make sure we were all on the same page.
We have some prototype 1-piece bass bells that we have made. A couple of them are with an artist right now in the field. We've found that people are gravitating to a particular weight and treatment, so those will likely become regular production before too long. They are not exactly like Bach or VNY bells, a little wider sounding and feeling, and the response varies greatly depending on the horn it's set up around. Again, I'd like to talk with someone prior to them prior to order to make sure we are all on the same page.
I hope this helps, let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Ben
...but recently, we acquired a 5YVNY bell. Oh my goodness. Now we're getting somewhere! It's probably because I cut my teeth playing Bach horns, but suddenly this horn, with the X tuning slide, has me really excited! Clean, crisp sounding with plenty of warmth and sparkle in the sound.
It works wonderfully with the TW47 slide, and I've also been using it with a T25LW slide, which is really fun. It really trims the fat from the sound, and produces a great tenor sound without much or the large bore girth. And so easy to play!
Anyway, playing this combo leads me to these two questions:
1. Have you made the 5YVNY in an 8 inch bell? Result?
2. When will you start making one-piece bass bells? I think I need one of these in my life.
Regards,
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
I'm glad you found a bell and tuning slide combo that works well for you! The TII5YVNY bells is one of our most popular and fits very well for people coming from Bach instruments. It even works for a lot of people that never would have considered a Bach.
Smaller diameter bells tend to respond more thickly and densely than their larger counterparts; there's less splash to the sound and feel. I'd want to have a talk with whoever was looking into purchasing one prior to us making it, just to make sure we were all on the same page.
We have some prototype 1-piece bass bells that we have made. A couple of them are with an artist right now in the field. We've found that people are gravitating to a particular weight and treatment, so those will likely become regular production before too long. They are not exactly like Bach or VNY bells, a little wider sounding and feeling, and the response varies greatly depending on the horn it's set up around. Again, I'd like to talk with someone prior to them prior to order to make sure we are all on the same page.
I hope this helps, let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Ben