Dream Trombones?

[Mv2541]

If you had an unlimited budget, what 1 trombone would you buy?

All bets are off, whether it's a vintage jazz horn or a top of the line concert trombone, if you could have any one tenor or bass, which would you choose?

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.

[mrdeacon]

What does XL even mean in Shires speak?

[HGrobot]

What does XL even mean in Shires speak?

I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.

[ericcheng2005]

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.

I looked at the Shires website and blended everything I liked about Conn and Bach bells into one bell, and this was the result haha. It's a monstrous model number compared to a 7YLW or 2RVE, but its one of those "just to see what would happen" things lol. Especially with that dual alloy red brass stem, yellow brass flare, I doubt they've made any of those.

My teacher plays a Slokar, and he recommended one if I ever get an alto, and the Shires alto just looks cool and I've heard favorable reviews of it here.

[ericcheng2005]

What does XL even mean in Shires speak?

I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.

Yes, it does mean extra light weight. There's been a couple of them on Trombone Marketplace and the classifieds over here, I think.

[ericcheng2005]

Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell

That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.

And maybe we do have similar taste, red brass FTW! I only put the Theins for the flexing factor haha

[ericcheng2005]

Hello Folks,
I like Yahama Trombone YSL-354 Trombone.
plz try it once.

Yahama? Never heard of it.

[Elow]

Yahama? Never heard of it.

Then, King 2B & Jupiter JTB700 is also a better options.

If youll sell me a 2B for the price of a yamaha 354 ill take it!

[deanmccarty]

I would probably get a Rath R3 with the nickel bell, a Rotax valve and the straight neckpipe. Although it would probably still just be a nice runner up to the '68 Elkhart 88h I already have.

I have this setup with a red brass tuning slide, and yellow hand slide... it is a SWEET horn. I hardly ever switch to the straight neck pipe... I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.

[deanmccarty]

I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted. The only instrument that eludes me right now is a Rath R90 contrabass trombone. I would love to have one, but I’m not sure that the price tag warrants the limited paid use that I would give it.

[hyperbolica]

I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.

How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?

[Finetales]

I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted.

A Willson euph is my dream euph as well. The sound is something else.

[Hobart]

If we're talking euphs, I want one of the compensating ones that's front-action. I'd even settle for one of the normal American styled ones with four valves, for some reason I like their timbre a little better.

[pmgtrombone]

Most of my trombones are pretty dreamy to some degree or another ... I suppose there is a slot for that Minick BBb/FF/DD double valve BBb contra on Brass Ark -- SO MUCH TUBING!!!

[RustBeltBass]

I have been an Edwards Artist for years now and still believe this to be the instrument maker’s products allow for me to get the most out of trombone playing, by far.


If I could choose a horn that is not an Edwards however, I would love to own an old Elkhart 62H that is in GOOD condition with usable valves, ideally with the triggers adjusted from the thumb-thumb set up. I once had the chance to try one (Minnick improves) and it was amazing.

[deanmccarty]

How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?

The best way to describe the differences between these two in words... well... the R3 is extremely light and nimble in sound. I don’t want you to think bright... just a lighter sound than the R4. Paired with the correct mouthpiece, the R3 makes for a perfect 1st trombone in a wind band setting, or in an orchestra that isn’t playing anything heavy. Perfect Mozart instrument. It is a great chamber instrument... or solo instrument (depending on the literature).

The R4 is a traditional large bore tenor that work wonderfully in any large ensemble setting. In orchestral settings I am able to push massive amounts of air through it without it breaking up (unlike an 88H). Addressing your question directly... I would say that this instrument would fit in between a Conn 88H and a Bach 42 as far as quality of sound. It gives you the beautiful soloist is quality of an Elkhart Conn, but gives you the ability and power to play in an orchestral setting.

The setup on my R3 is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, yellow hand slide. For me that is perfect for salsa and other Latin music where I need the lightness of a small bore, but the power of a large bore. When I throw the f-attachment (Rotax) on, it adds a little more support to the sound, making it a superb small ensemble instrument.

The setup on my R4F is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, red hand slide, and a Hagmann valve with a heavy cap. This is a heavier instrument that works well for me in large ensembles. I have never had an issue with the sound breaking up. This was actually my first Rath instrument. I was a Shires guy before... at ITF year after year Mick would remember me... he finally convinced me to at least try one of his instruments out. On my Shires instruments I was very pleased with my bass and small tenor setups... but for some reason, I just could never find a large tenor that worked for me. I tried different combinations on the Shires... and the went to different manufacturers... I finally decided that size just didn’t work for me... I would play it, but I was never satisfied.

Well... when I finally decided to try out Mick’s .547 tenor, I went in with what I thought I would like. I’m a traditional rotor guy... Thayer valves just don’t get along with me... I had never tried a Hagmann valve, but I had tried other oversized valves before with mediocre results. So... I went in wanting a horn with a rose bell, Rotax valve, and a nickel slide. I’m not going to lie... I hated the instrument. But, I gave Mick a fair shot... he asked what exactly I was looking for out of a large tenor... he did some switching around a few times... I was set on the Rotax valve, so he didn’t change that... he finally went to the nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide, and Rotax valve. I played that... and it was ok... but still couldn’t push the sound I had in my head, but it was closer than anything I had ever played... but not good enough. I told him I was going to just stay with what I had... and he said “just one more switch... I promise”. He went and put the Hagmann valve on with a heavy cap... same setup except that... and OH MY! There it was... finally.

I have never had anyone put the time in to “me” like Mick had... he treated me as if I was Conrad Herwig... I’m just a normal guy who plays in the studio and regionally... I had worked with Steve Shires before and Christan Griego and they were both selling their horns, but were not at all invested like Mick. Mike Corrigan and I had a good relationship, but his product is different when it comes to large bore instruments... all that aside... Steve and Christan make great horns... Mick REALLY stands behind his product in a personal way. He went out of his way to ask what I was looking for, and knew his product. For the first time in my life I found a large bore tenor that truly worked for me. I cannot say enough about his customer service... and his product matches right up to it.

Now, everything that I play is Rath. As for which one plays more like an Elkhart Conn... I would go with an R3F with a nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide... as for attachment... the Hagmann will give the instrument more stability, but the Rotax will give you a lighter sound. I would try both... there WILL be a difference in sound and feel.

[hyperbolica]

@DeanMcCarty,

Thanks for that. I've played an R3, and really loved it. I wasn't ready at that time to put money down. It would be nice to have a nice horn like that. Right now I'm mainly playing 79h. I tried a Shires with the same setup, but it just didn't do it for me - too heavy playing.

Thanks for the setup tips. I might not have guessed all the red brass. I do like Hagmanns, but I like the lighter sound and simpler mechanics more, so I'd probably go Rotax as well. If you hear of an available used setup, raise a flag. Thanks again.

[silverslideman]

I'd order an indy Latzsch carbon fiber valveset and have it sent to Butler to incorporate.

Hi Leo. Does the Lätzsch CF valveset exist? Do you have any other info, or a link, please? Looked at their site, but nothing immediately obvious. Interesting, as I'm wondering about a C12.
TIA.

[Kevbach33]

Updated original post on page 1 with additional dream horns and a couple questions about the Deutsch rose brass Shires offers for their seamed tuning slides that I'll ask here. Is this alloy available for their bells? If not, why is it listed on their site under the bells link? If yes, why does it say, "Only available for seamed tuning slides."?

As for mouthpieces to pair with these dream horns:
Thinking Doug Elliot's system would get me where I need to be...
Tenor would revolve around the LT101 rim, I'd say.
D cup/D3 shank (my Bach 5 as backup) for small tenor, and F/F8 (5GS as backup) for large, maybe F+ or G/G8.
Bass would be probably LB110? Not sure here since I don't play as much bass now...
J/J8 for jazz, L/L8 or L10 for classical, probably.
And CB118, P cup plus whichever shank fits the contra, which is probably tuba sized.

[tskeldon]

Thein Old German Friedman Style (German Style cues), .508/520 dual bore, with convertible F attachment, and thumb operated water key. [I seldom use an F-attachment anymore because 1.) extreme alternate positions make otherwise awkward melodic passages doable, and 2.) I play lyrical TENOR trombone and have not much need.] Today's price: $11,000 US + tax and import duties.

I am looking for an attractive, small ‘ish bore tenor, wi th a sweet, singing, resonant sound to uses as a recital instrument, and wondered if this might work. I don’t play orchestrally anymore, so I don’t require extreme volume, just an instrument that speaks quickly in service of all registers.

I played every crappy trombone concerto and sonata written (and hated most of it), so now I play only transcriptions of music whose pedigree can't be questioned. But playing Schumann, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, etc. requires longer phrases than trombones typically can’t entertain, so I’ve developed new modes of play.

I play much of the time in 4-7 position, using extreme alternate positions to facilitate what would otherwise be impossible technical demands at speed. Additionally, I require an instrument with a thumb operated water key, because there is no time to empty it between long-breathed phrases.

I have developed, I think, a 'hybrid' sound, wherein notes in extreme alternate positions, supported by optimal mouthpiece impedance matching, are grown indistinguishable from common positions. Their are many kinds of beauty in this world. I require only that I participate in ‘some’ form of it.

If it is the case that I don't play sufficiently loud or euphonic to satisfy the current performance paradigm, either because the tone is 'tenor' rather than baritone (in the vocal sense), or because my technique defeats conventional slide awkwardness, I'm am much gratified by efforts and the evolution.

The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:

[tskeldon]

Here are the rest of the Thein Old German Friedman Model pics.

[tskeldon]

And if we're adding baritones/euphoniums, an Alexander 151 Kaiser Euphonium, on the right (or less desirably, a Miraphone 56A), for want of the same philosophical oversight of tenor quality over baritone (in the vocal sense). I have what is very good relative, or merely average perfect pitch (I can't perform freakish tricks), so I don't have the usual problems (though I do have those intonation problems associated with this condition when playing in ensemble with people gifted with moveable pitch). Otherwise, I don't even know why 'slide' trombones have tuning slides (and indeed antique, replicas and vintage instrument don't). They are redundant unless your ear isn't good enough to challenge your commitment to the authority of neuromuscular memory.

I haven't moved the tuning slide on my Williams 4 since I got it, except to clean it, and I manage to record with backing tracks (sans auto-tune) brilliantly. Conceptually, I now have as many positions, existentially, as their are notes. As soon as I let go of the idea of a trombone having 7 positions (and being overly euphonic) that require modest compensation, extreme alternates ceased to propose tuning problems, and, more interestingly, so too did they lose their funky 'alternate' sound (by and large) for being 'fed' what they needed, and allowed to exist in place. I required them to participate tonally with similitude of quality, and that they develop their fullest potential. I believe in the note, and so it has, over time, come to manifest better than I would ever have expected.

[bassboneman69]

My achievable dream is having a nice Holton 169 or early TR185. I still miss the early TR185 I had!

If I dream big... I'd love to have M&W whip something up for me... either a Holton style single valve with a plugin valve or a setup similar to Minick.

Yasss!!!
This!

[Driswood]

Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done

[bbocaner]

The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:

I have played one of the Thein Friedman model. I was a bit disappointed with it, honestly. It was heavy and not at all resonant like some of the original Kruspe instruments I've tried.

You might be happier with the Thein Classic model. Similar specs, but with a nickel-silver slide and just built lighter.

[bbocaner]

I'd order an indy Latzsch carbon fiber valveset and have it sent to Butler to incorporate.

Hi Leo. Does the Lätzsch CF valveset exist? Do you have any other info, or a link, please? Looked at their site, but nothing immediately obvious. Interesting, as I'm wondering about a C12.
TIA.

It's called the Latzsch Full Flow Valve. Strange that they don't have anything on their website touting it. It's a really great valve: super smooth, very open, and quick and easy to maintain. It's not carbon fiber, it's "carbon." I'm not sure if this means graphite or some sort of resin-impregnated carbon dust or what, but it isn't a woven fiber.

[Oslide]

Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done

What's your preferred leadpipe, if I may ask? Thank you.

[ronnies]

I already have my dream bass trombone, though it's quite new to me. It's an 'early' Shires Tru-Bore bass with two bell options and two tuning slides.
I also like my tenor (a straight 42) but I'd like it better if it was a 42B or an 88H.

Ronnie

[imsevimse]

Before I became a collector I had the opportunity to try several trombones by Jurgen Voigt in a shop here in Sweden. There were all kinds of tenor trombones, also suqbuts and even some modern design of suqbuts. Very interesting horns and easy to play. Many had that tone ring on the bell that Olds Super 15 trombones have. They were here in the shop just for a very short period, many models, about 20 different instruments to try at least. At the time I was on hunt for my first bass trombone so I was not very interested in another tenor. I needed the money for a bass and those tenors were not cheap. Many times I have regretted that I did not just buy one or two of those horns. If it was today I would do it. This was twenty years ago and my economy did not allow for those horns back then. They disappeared back to Germany the next week. Never seen any of those horns in Sweden since.

/Tom

[tskeldon]

The question is...has anyone (other than contra-bass trombonists) actually played one of these. Thein is waiting on my decision. Here it is:

I have played one of the Thein Friedman model. I was a bit disappointed with it, honestly. It was heavy and not at all resonant like some of the original Kruspe instruments I've tried.

You might be happier with the Thein Classic model. Similar specs, but with a nickel-silver slide and just built lighter.

Thank-you! Can I ask, did you get the sense that it was projecting rather than resonating? It is often the case that instruments do one at the expense of the other, though most haven't taken the time to explore this effect. I'm convinced that instruments that reward the player too often fail the audience (or the microphone). In terms of physics, an instrument that vibrates does so because it has failed to pass its energy forward in a predictable way, and often provides a pleasant but inaccurate tonal perspective to the player (see below). I feel that it was the case in the 70's (when I was playing), that Bachs projected and Conn's vibrated; which is why I think that players, not me, preferred (to some degree) the Conn's feedback (I was required to play a Conn though), but failed to understand that their sound, at least from the audience's perspective, was...less loud, robust, resonant or engaging than they thought, while Bachs tended to do the opposite. As a student, I was foolish enough to propose this to the section but it was not received well.

Recently I have come to realize that there is an impedance component to matching mouthpieces that creates this same effect: the note seems to materializes at, in (most ring), or somewhere in front of the bell (least ring) as a function of varying impedance caused by changing mouthpiece parameters. I am indifferent to where the sound seems to materialize first, as long as it provides me with an accurate aural perspective of what I sound like in the hall. [Note: it has been my recent experience that when I choose a set-up that 'doesn't' utilize or 'cause' the instrument to augment my perception of my tone, every aspect of my playing improves as the sound then more closely matches the 'feel', and that...transparency or accuracy rewards you with immediacy necessary to control the sound, a note, a slur, etc. before it goes sideways.] It is usually the case that the one that sounds the least immediate causes the most remote effect. If this is true, professionals should service their obligation and play the instrument that best serves the audience sonic receipt, instead of defaulting to their own egos by playing an instrument that scratches their itch while short-changing the audience (albeit nominally). Amateurs, for failing an audience, are free to weave the fabric of their own delusion to best serve their hobbyist pursuit of music.

Thanks again!

[Driswood]

Already have it.

1957 Conn 6H. Used to belong to Les Benedict. Over sleeves have been removed to lighten the outer slide. Lead pipe has been pulled, so I can use custom pipes.

Done

What's your preferred leadpipe, if I may ask? Thank you.

It came with a Conn 2 and Conn 3 pipes, from a 100H. I sold them, didn't care for them.

I'm currently using the original pipe, but I'm going to try a BrassArk Burkle pipe in nickel silver.

[modelerdc]

a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound!

[Elow]

a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound!

good luck

[Finetales]

a double slide BB flat contra that's easy to play with a great sound!

good luck

I would bet the Thein, Minick, and Brad Close BBbs have a great sound, and are as easy to play as a trombone that big can be. It's probably just the Miraphone and clones that aren't!

[Kevbach33]

good luck

I would bet the Thein, Minick, and Brad Close BBbs have a great sound, and are as easy to play as a trombone that big can be. It's probably just the Miraphone and clones that aren't!

Might as well probably throw in the 3 of 4 Conn BBb contras (the 4th is smaller, likely easy to play but raspy, based on Noah's description from the Brass Ark) that the Miraphone and clones are based on in the "rather difficult to play, but rewarding when played well," category. "I put out what you put in," rather than, say, "I will help you put out what you want to put in."

[Finetales]

Might as well probably throw in the 3 of 4 Conn BBb contras (the 4th is smaller, likely easy to play but raspy, based on Noah's description from the Brass Ark) that the Miraphone and clones are based on in the "rather difficult to play, but rewarding when played well," category. "I put out what you put in," rather than, say, "I will help you put out what you want to put in."

That small bore Conn that was on the BrassArk is a next-level dream trombone for me.

[biggiesmalls]

One of my dreams just came true...

[bigbandbone]

Now that I've become a full time bass tbonist my new dream horn would be a bone stock (sorry for the pun) Conn 71H in like new condition. I guess I have simple needs!

[SwissTbone]

One of my dreams just came true...

Oooooh you lucky guy!

[euphobone]

I would customize a Duo Gravis to have a larger bore size through rotors and F and D slides, but maintain the same wrap. Just a curiosity of mine...

[mrdeacon]

I just got one in the mail today ooooooh ain't purdy!

[Posaunus]

WOW! Beautiful.

What mechanisms on the valve linkages! They'll keep you busy just maintaining adjustment.

[MahlerMusic]

Surprised noone's put this out there yet - I'd go for Jeff Reynolds' Minick contra

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.

[Otello]

I would love to get my hands on a Bach 42A. I just find Hagmann valves so unique even though they are really expensive.

[harrisonreed]

Surprised noone's put this out there yet - I'd go for Jeff Reynolds' Minick contra

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.

Is that even a Minick mouthpiece I see in there?

[MahlerMusic]

Just got one to try out. Will take awhile to tame the beast.

Is that even a Minick mouthpiece I see in there?

Yes, it is a Minick L Contra mouthpiece. I can't find specs anywhere for it. I did not liking it at first but it is growing on me. I wanted to move to a 2A like most other player but I have no idea if it will be bigger or smaller.

Here it is compared to my 1G and 1/2G

[chouston3]

Give me about three more years and I will want an Arkbone or a Greenhoe Bach.

In the meantime, the 891z is my dream horn for small bore.

[MichaelMedrick]

If I had the money and the time to really evaluate, i'd love to tru a King 3B plus. It as likey as not would be a
Rabbit Hole for me. i try other .525 trombones and come right back to a Bach 36.

[mgladdish]

I said I would put the pictures, here they are; my brand new, B.A.C. custom, STERLING silver bell, .500/.508 carbon-fiber slide, based on Williams #6 (7.75 inches bell), with personalized counterweight (Saturn's ring around the B.A.C. counterweight), custom thumb ring, Paseo handgrip and very personalized engraving

The carbon-fiber slide counters some of the brightness of the sterling silver bell, but you could say instead that the sterling silver bell counters the carbon-fiber's deadening effect too. The combination is a beast that can still talk loud but blends in much better at lower volume compared to traditional sterling silver instruments. It will take some time to get used to, this horn has so much personality!

Wow, that's beautiful.

[mgladdish]

If money really is no object, my dream would be to put a trombone research facility together. Proper bond villain lair stylee.

I'd hire the best physicists, metallurgists and acoustics engineers money could buy, plus the other specialists they tell me to, and tell them to go back to first principles and work out what makes the best trombone possible. Hell, even roboticists too. I bet there's scope for all sorts of assisted tech that could make even a "perfect" trombone better. Would auxilliary air support help? What about mechanically assisted valves that can be timed to switch in a minima in the waveform passing through them? Or how about dynamic mouthpiece, leadpipe, or even bell flair shape that adjusts to what you're playing in real time?

I'd be amazed if that kind of investment wouldn't pay off with a step-change in what we think of as possible for the trombone.