3BF mod: What would you do with this?

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:08 pm

Eagerly awaiting a solid eBay deal on a new-to-me 3BF, that may or may not have been bought under intoxication. Looks like it’s seen some good times but I’m hoping it’s ready for more. The listing - from a band store in OK - mentions it’s just been serviced (dents rolled, chem cleaned, slide lubed) so while I haven’t played it yet I’m confident it’ll do a grand job, and hopefully not need too much work on it. Can’t quite make out the serial # so I’m not sure when it’s from.

Question being - what mods, if any, might you be tempted to do? Given the appearance and my own shallow vanity, I’m probably interested in some sort of lacquer removal, at least on the bell but while I’m reasonable handy I’ve never worked on a horn before. But very interested in low cost options and not too afraid to get my hands dirty, so long as the risk of important horn damage is minimal.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:15 pm

Good luck getting the lacquer off! That stuff is like armor plate. If the valve seals, then I would leave it as is. They're good horns, I love mine.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:27 pm

Haha, I’ve heard the King stuff, especially the older stuff, can be tough. Ez-clean on a hot day and/or citristrip are what I’ve seen mentioned on a couple other posts.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:33 pm

I had one and took the valve off.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:37 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:33 pm I had one and took the valve off.

The valve, and that extra flexibility, is actually the main reason I got it! I was looking for a bargain horn with a valve so I can develop and have that range available, initially at .525, but couldn’t pass this up when I saw it. I do love a King.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:40 pm

I definitely wouldn't take the valve off. A straight 3B is like $500.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:37 am

If you must mod: BrassArk leadpipe, screw bell, cut the valve to G (still with the option for F of course). And buy that carbon fiber 3B slide DJ had last time I was there. Or actually wait, don't, I want to buy that one day...

But, none of those are exactly cheap so I would leave it as is unless you want to shell out!

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:17 am

If it plays well,then nothing

boneagain · Post by **boneagain** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:25 am

I'd look very carefully at the ferrule where the neck pipe joings the tuning stuff. Can't quite tell from the big shot above, but the lacquer looks burned there. As long as that area does not leak, I'd leave that alone.

I would not worry as much about the bell as the neck and hand contact points. Sweat can go UNDER lacquer and cause problems that appear to be covered. Sweat that goes under un-lined leather or rubber covers can do the same thing. DIY covers from craft-store leather can leave nasty surprises underneath after sweat and tanning chemicals end up trapped between leather and metal. All the commercial wraps I know of have good barriers, so you could use some of those to avoid eating right through those contact points.

I've taken King lacquer off a couple old horns. I used Jasco paint and epoxy remover, available at Home Depot. I had LONG sleeves on, and gloves with LONG cuffs, rated for very harsh chemicals (none of the thin single-layer ones) and wrap around goggles and (just for good measure) my respirator mash hon. I still got some on some skin (I think it dribbled down the inside of the glove cuff.) It was only a dot about 1/16" around. Made me VERY glad I didn't get more on me, and that I did the work OUTSIDE, with a mask on. Had to let the stuff set for quite sometime for each application. One application was never enough. Lots of rinsing implications. That "lacquer" was TOUGH stuff!

Enjoy your new baby!

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:27 am

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:27 pm Haha, I’ve heard the King stuff, especially the older stuff, can be tough. Ez-clean on a hot day and/or citristrip are what I’ve seen mentioned on a couple other posts.

King lacquer (as well as Yamaha and "Lustre-Conn") is an epoxy. Very durable. Very difficult to remove.

The most success I have seen with epoxy lacquers is high temperature caustic. EZ-Off Oven Cleaner is a caustic and that may be why it seems to work. Just watch out. After the caustic takes off the epoxy it starts attacking the brass.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:50 am

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:37 am If you must mod: BrassArk leadpipe, screw bell, cut the valve to G (still with the option for F of course). And buy that carbon fiber 3B slide DJ had last time I was there. Or actually wait, don't, I want to buy that one day...

Probably more hardcore than I’m looking for here, and so long as this slide is fine then your butler one is safe with DJ for now!

Good to know re: the lacquer and the contact areas. I’ll look into getting another protec neck strip or the leather specialties grips if it looks too worn there.

Sounds overall like my best bet is to leave well enough alone, and just enjoy the horn! Save the money for if/when it breaks and needs a fixing.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:58 am

boneagain wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:25 am I'd look very carefully at the ferrule where the neck pipe joings the tuning stuff. Can't quite tell from the big shot above, but the lacquer looks burned there. As long as that area does not leak, I'd leave that alone.

Good looking out. I’m not sure quite what’s going on there.

boneagain · Post by **boneagain** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:04 am

Looks to me like a good repair.

Are you comfortable pulling a valve apart? I always clean and "inside lube" valves on horns that are "new to me." That gives me a chance to stick a finger over the ports on the casing and check each segment for leakage. A little leak at THAT joint could make the difference between a good player and a stinker.

Oh, I DO wipe the lube off the part I'm going to blow into

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:16 am

It’s not something I’ve ever done - the mysteries of valve even basic valve maintenance still unknown to me.

Harpcat · Post by **Harpcat** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:30 pm

I've stripped my '65 King 3B with Easy Off oven cleaner. Get the real stuff. Not the newer safer good smelling stuff. I placed my bell on some newspaper in my driveway on a 85 degree day for a hour before I started. Then I sprayed on the cleaner, waited just a couple of minutes and wiped it off. I was done in 30 minutes. I feel sure the heat helped. I had read how difficult the process was that I was completely shocked by how easy it was! In 45 minutes I had washed the horn well with soap and water and cleaned up the mess in the drive. Plus, the horn looks so much better without that old orange lacquer. Some of the bracing and tubes around the tuning slide are actually nickel when you remove the lacquer. Really nice looking.

Now, if you really want to do some mods that will improve the horn. Mine is a straight horn without the attachment. I sent it to Dave Butler. He retrofitted a carbon fiber bell and a carbon fiber outer slide. It's so light and nice to play now. The amazing thing is it still has that easily identifiable iconic 3B tone. One of the things that people rarely mention about CF horns is how bulletproof they are. I play the horn in electric blues bands so it sits on a stand part of the night while I play other stuff. Don't have to worry so much about the slide getting dented. No longer worry about using a gig bag for protection. It's great. Looking forward to feeling safe enough to go out and play it again some day! All the best in your journey to t-bone perfection!

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:45 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:16 am It’s not something I’ve ever done - the mysteries of valve even basic valve maintenance still unknown to me.

It's really quite easy, and will help your valve a lot.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:11 pm

Take the valve off.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:51 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:45 pm
MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:16 am It’s not something I’ve ever done - the mysteries of valve even basic valve maintenance still unknown to me.
It's really quite easy, and will help your valve a lot.

Where does one even begin??

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:55 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:11 pm Take the valve off.

Ok, I have to bite. Why? As I said above, a straight 3B isn't exactly expensive.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:56 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:51 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:45 pm

It's really quite easy, and will help your valve a lot.
Where does one even begin??

I'll make a video. Be right back...

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:45 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:16 am It’s not something I’ve ever done - the mysteries of valve even basic valve maintenance still unknown to me.

This doesn't show taking the valve apart, but it's a good intro to basic valve maintenance:

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:28 pm

Something I hacked together, should help.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:44 am

Thanks guys - these are both great!

RConrad · Post by **RConrad** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:15 am

Anyone happen to know if the Benge 175F's valve is similar to the 3BF? I need to realign the valve on my 175F and just haven't had the chance to take it to a tech.

Post by **BGuttman** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:17 am

RConrad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:15 am Anyone happen to know if the Benge 175F's valve is similar to the 3BF? I need to realign the valve on my 175F and just haven't had the chance to take it to a tech.

It's a sting linkage, no? If so they all work the same way. How is it out of alignment?

RConrad · Post by **RConrad** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:34 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:17 am
RConrad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:15 am Anyone happen to know if the Benge 175F's valve is similar to the 3BF? I need to realign the valve on my 175F and just haven't had the chance to take it to a tech.
It's a sting linkage, no? If so they all work the same way. How is it out of alignment?

You are correct, it's a string linkage. It's rotating just a bit too far and when I depress the valve trigger fully I get a metallic clank. I'm not extremely familiar with string linkage though so it might be that I need to adjust the linkage instead of realigning the valve?

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:45 am

Could it be the stopper arm, on the back of the valve? Maybe it’s hitting the rubber guard too hard, or possibly the rubber guard is out of alignment.

After servicing the string linkage rotor on my 3BF (thanks to Aiden and Harrison for the excellent videos above!) it works great but still has an audible click when I press it at speed - I think from slapping the guard.

RConrad · Post by **RConrad** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:21 am

I just doubled checked the rubber bumpers and oiled the valve while I was at it. It seems like that may have done the trick as it's nice and quiet now. I must have overlooked it last time. The rotor has alignment marks and they've been aligned so I was a bit unsure what was going on. Might be time to see if I can find replacement bumpers and new string though. Thank you Bruce and Matt for the help, glad I didn't need to take it apart.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:29 pm

RConrad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:15 am Anyone happen to know if the Benge 175F's valve is similar to the 3BF? I need to realign the valve on my 175F and just haven't had the chance to take it to a tech.

It's great to see you still have the Benge! I think about that horn often

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:32 pm

The Benge 175F (along with the King 2125, or 3B+F) were the horns at the top of my list! But standard 3Bs are so much more affordable and easy to find, so it won out.

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:12 pm

RConrad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:21 am I just doubled checked the rubber bumpers and oiled the valve while I was at it. It seems like that may have done the trick as it's nice and quiet now. I must have overlooked it last time. The rotor has alignment marks and they've been aligned so I was a bit unsure what was going on. Might be time to see if I can find replacement bumpers and new string though. Thank you Bruce and Matt for the help, glad I didn't need to take it apart.

Ignore the alignment marks and just look into the receiver at the rotor core. Those alignment marks are pretty rough and not always correct.

Cheers,
Andy

RConrad · Post by **RConrad** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:44 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:29 pm It's great to see you still have the Benge! I think about that horn often

It's a great horn with a lot of character so it's a keeper. haha

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:12 pm Ignore the alignment marks and just look into the receiver at the rotor core. Those alignment marks are pretty rough and not always correct.

Cheers,
Andy

Well that's good to know. After staring at my engineering homework all day I saw two lines not aligned. haha

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:09 pm

If you had it converted to a straight neck pipe you wouldn't have to worry about valve maintenance.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:15 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:09 pm If you had it converted to a straight neck pipe you wouldn't have to worry about valve maintenance.

Why are you so fixated on this???

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:40 pm

I don’t really think a valve is necessary for a 3B. I would much rather have a straight horn than one with an F attachment. For the rare occasion i have a C playing second part in a big band, i just go to 6th. If i were to have a 3B with a valve i’d probably want it tuned to G or something. Another thing you could do, swap the slide tenon and slide receiver for edwards parts so you can slap an edwards slide. Could also get a .525 slide on there to fulfill your original desire. Not sure how that would play but could be interesting.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:57 pm

I mean, the 3BF is a hugely popular horn for a reason.

For me, I play a lot of commercial, in addition to big band and New Orleans. The 3BF is an invaluable horn for that, as it gives you that bottom octave when you need it (having a solid low E♭ below the stave is a huge benefit. There are also frequently some fast moving horn parts bouncing around the low B♭, Bnat and C range, which the trigger makes much easier.

Outside of commercial stuff, the same applies to a lot of theatre work.

In short, it gives me flexibility across an extended range, but keeps the 508 sound for the majority of playing. It’s all benefit, no drawback.

If I’m doing a gig where I definitely don’t need a trigger, I’ll pull out either my BAC Paseo W6 or my 2B. But the 3B is definitely the most useful addition to the arsenal.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:26 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:40 pm I don’t really think a valve is necessary for a 3B. I would much rather have a straight horn than one with an F attachment. For the rare occasion i have a C playing second part in a big band, i just go to 6th. If i were to have a 3B with a valve i’d probably want it tuned to G or something. Another thing you could do, swap the slide tenon and slide receiver for edwards parts so you can slap an edwards slide. Could also get a .525 slide on there to fulfill your original desire. Not sure how that would play but could be interesting.

Elow (and Thrawn), did you not understand Matt's (MagnumH) motivation for acquiring this trombone, or are you just trying to be cute and clever? He was asking for advice; you are both trying to sidetrack him. Why?

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:37 pm
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:33 pm I had one and took the valve off.
The valve, and that extra flexibility, is actually the main reason I got it!
[/quote

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:46 pm

My bad if it came off as an annoyance. I hadn’t read that specific reply. I was just saying what i would do if i had infinite funds. If i were actively looking for a 3b i would probably get a straight horn. Something just feels better to me about a straight small bore.

afugate · Post by **afugate** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:45 am

MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:57 pm I mean, the 3BF is a hugely popular horn for a reason.

For me, I play a lot of commercial, in addition to big band and New Orleans. The 3BF is an invaluable horn for that, as it gives you that bottom octave when you need it (having a solid low E♭ below the stave is a huge benefit. There are also frequently some fast moving horn parts bouncing around the low B♭, Bnat and C range, which the trigger makes much easier.

Outside of commercial stuff, the same applies to a lot of theatre work.

In short, it gives me flexibility across an extended range, but keeps the 508 sound for the majority of playing. It’s all benefit, no drawback.

If I’m doing a gig where I definitely don’t need a trigger, I’ll pull out either my BAC Paseo W6 or my 2B. But the 3B is definitely the most useful addition to the arsenal.

I love my 3BFs (plural) for this very reason. And learning to play B♭ and A with the trigger was very helpful for me. I practice scale patterns that way and it's something I teach all the kids I work with.

--Andy in OKC

BrianAn · Post by **BrianAn** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:13 am

I agree learning to use and having a Bb in flat 3rd position is very useful to allow easy access to 4th and 5th position. In my opinion though the A in 5th-ish position is a bit unpalatable for me. The Bb with the valve is alright, but the A sounds like you're playing through just a little too much tubing. I would rather stick to the A in 2nd.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:42 am

biggestbrain wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:13 am I agree learning to use and having a Bb in flat 3rd position is very useful to allow easy access to 4th and 5th position. In my opinion though the A in 5th-ish position is a bit unpalatable for me. The Bb with the valve is alright, but the A sounds like you're playing through just a little too much tubing. I would rather stick to the A in 2nd.

It all depends on how long the note is held. A lot of alternate positions become available in fast passages where the tone quality matters less than the flow.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:07 pm

My 3B and 3BF (built one year apart from each other) play, sound, and feel almost EXACTLY the same. You don't notice any difference if you're not playing them back to back. The valve doesn't hurt the horn...I don't understand the fixation in this thread of removing it.

Also, MagnumH hit the nail on the head. The 3BF is an incredibly useful and versatile horn, even more than a straight 3B already is. It's the ultimate wedding band horn when you're playing high rock and pop horn parts and then suddenly you have to cover the bari part on Proud Mary, not to mention pit/show orchestras where the parts are just like that to begin with. I've played it in every conceivable medium short of in a symphony orchestra and it did exactly what I needed it to...and being as I've used my straight 3B on principal in an orchestra before it's not far-fetched to think you could use a 3BF there too.

If the 3BF was the only kind of trombone in the world, we would be in good shape.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:50 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:07 pm My 3B and 3BF (built one year apart from each other) play, sound, and feel almost EXACTLY the same. You don't notice any difference if you're not playing them back to back. The valve doesn't hurt the horn...I don't understand the fixation in this thread of removing it.

Also, MagnumH hit the nail on the head. The 3BF is an incredibly useful and versatile horn, even more than a straight 3B already is. It's the ultimate wedding band horn when you're playing high rock and pop horn parts and then suddenly you have to cover the bari part on Proud Mary, not to mention pit/show orchestras where the parts are just like that to begin with. I've played it in every conceivable medium short of in a symphony orchestra and it did exactly what I needed it to...and being as I've used my straight 3B on principal in an orchestra before it's not far-fetched to think you could use a 3BF there too.

If the 3BF was the only kind of trombone in the world, we would be in good shape.

Been playing my 3BF this week after a long time in the closet, and am reminded of how versatile this trombone is. As Finetales says, you can play lead trombone parts on it; then insert a larger mouthpiece and it becomes (almost) a big symphonic horn. If I played behind a screen, I bet most listeners wouldn't know! Excellent decades-old design. Thanks, King!

rvriesman · Post by **rvriesman** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:19 pm

I like the straight 3B. For what I used the horn for (dance band) I never had much use for the f-attachment and for a four-hour gig it was nice to not have the extra weight. I never felt the weight when I was younger, but I do now as an older dude. If you want the valve, I agree with the other writers...just play it and be happy.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:04 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:45 am Could it be the stopper arm, on the back of the valve? Maybe it’s hitting the rubber guard too hard, or possibly the rubber guard is out of alignment.

After servicing the string linkage rotor on my 3BF (thanks to Aiden and Harrison for the excellent videos above!) it works great but still has an audible click when I press it at speed - I think from slapping the guard.

It could be that the rubber bumpers are too hard

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:10 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:46 pm My bad if it came off as an annoyance. I hadn’t read that specific reply. I was just saying what i would do if i had infinite funds. If i were actively looking for a 3b i would probably get a straight horn. Something just feels better to me about a straight small bore.

Moment of truth! Have you played a 3BF ever? If so, was it for longer than a few days?

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:56 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:10 pm
Elow wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:46 pm My bad if it came off as an annoyance. I hadn’t read that specific reply. I was just saying what i would do if i had infinite funds. If i were actively looking for a 3b i would probably get a straight horn. Something just feels better to me about a straight small bore.
Moment of truth! Have you played a 3BF ever? If so, was it for longer than a few days?

I had my schools straight 3b sent for repairs and i got a 3bf as a loaner horn for about a week or two. I preferred the straight over anything.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:05 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:56 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:10 pm

Moment of truth! Have you played a 3BF ever? If so, was it for longer than a few days?
I had my schools straight 3b sent for repairs and i got a 3bf as a loaner horn for about a week or two. I preferred the straight over anything.

Fair enough, then. I can't really tell a big difference. I know there are those who can and swear by it.

Silversonic vs Yellow Brass is a completely different story though!

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:31 pm

My '70s yellow brass 3B/F plays very well, in some ways better than my straight silversonic. I'm sure there's bad ones out there, but it's a great instrument and NOT a huge step down from a straight 3B, just like an 88H or 42B is not a huge step down from an 8H or 42.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:46 pm

The only reason i can see having a 3BF is for pit work. Beyond that i felt having a small rotor on a small horn was pointless. That's why i had the rotor taken off of my 3BF when i owned on. Kings are great playing horns but i prefer Conns because for me, my 6H has been more versatile than my Kings ever were.

Having said that i have never really relied on rotors outside of bass bone.