Doubling on cornet: why is french horn easier?

[bwanamfupi]

Hello all, I am new to this forum. I played trombone recreationally with a community band here in Indianapolis before COVID. Now I play at home with my daughter, who is a high school french horn player. Sometimes when we play together we will finish a practice by switching instruments. Usually for me that's a flugabone or baritone, and for her it's an old Blessing cornet that I married into. Sometimes I will play her french horn (I played french horn briefly in my junior high band several decades ago, and I have been able to revive my "chop memory"). Sometimes I try to play the cornet. I can play moderately well on the french horn, but I struggle mightily on the cornet. I can barely reach the E at the top of the staff, and I'm done after 5 or 10 minutes. A couple of my professional musician friends have checked out the cornet and told me it's a good instrument. It sounds great when they play it, and when my daughter plays it. It sounds okay when I play it until the 5 or 10 minute mark. Then it doesn't sound great.

I know that doubling from low brass to high brass is challenging, but I see several folks on this forum who do it. Do you have any suggestions on what I could do differently? One answer could be that I need to devote a whole lot more intentional time to the cornet. But I'm curious why the french horn doesn't give me those problems even though it has the smaller mouthpiece.

Thanks for your input,
Shawn (Indianapolis)

[Doug Elliott]

When you play trombone, your lips protrude somewhat into the mouthpiece. A trumpet or cornet mouthpiece cup is shallow enough that it doesn't allow that to happen and everything chokes off soon after you start playing and your lips swell a bit. A horn mouthpiece cup is much more forgiving of that, and that's actually how low notes are possible on such a small mouthpiece when the lips buzz with an in-and-out orientation.

[bwanamfupi]

Thanks, Doug. So that would say I need to be intentional with cornet practice time if I want to change the status quo. The better my daughter gets on french horn, the more obvious the gap with my cornet playing. That will either give me impetus to put the time in, or I'll decide it's a good chance to let her see my fallibility.

[BGuttman]

I learned to read French Horn music on trombone (F-horn reads Mezzo-Soprano clef). French Horn and trombone have similar tessitura and you can play convincing duets that way.

Doug is right about the mouthpiece. The deeper Horn mouthpiece is easier to play for a trombone player. I wound up getting the biggest mouthpiece I could for cornet (Neill Sanders 17Dcd) and I still have problems.

[Doug Elliott]

Try to play trumpet or cornet with a "flatter" embouchure set, less protruded.
This is stuff I teach in Skype lessons if you're interested.

[bwanamfupi]

I learned to read French Horn music on trombone (F-horn reads Mezzo-Soprano clef). French Horn and trombone have similar tessitura and you can play convincing duets that way.

I've transcribed some of my daughter's school music into MuseScore and then put it in bass clef so I can play along with her. It's a fun combination. It would be easier if I could read her music directly.

[davebb]

You’ll find it a bit easier on a bigger mouthpiece like a Denis Wick 2, 3 or 4. The wick 4 is the standard middle of the road cup for brass band players.
All of these have much greater depth and bigger throat than the Bach cornet mouthpieces which are much closer to a trumpet-shaped cup.
I played a cornet for about 20 years but now struggle to play it much at all (with a wick 4) now. -My trombone physique doesn’t work well.
Chasons make a mouthpiece intended for doublers which would be interesting to try, but price is $235. They go as large as a 6.5 rim size.

[bwanamfupi]

I tried the Chasons mouthpiece about a year ago because I thought my problem was the rim size. I actually sounded worse. The cup is pretty shallow, and I didn't do anything intentional to change my technique. I suspect it was a poor combination of user and tool.

On a more cheerful note, about the time I posted my original query, I found a good deal for a Denis Wick 2 on trumpetherald.com. It is considerably easier to play. It feels like there's a lot less back pressure coming from the horn. And I've had modest success trying to read my daughter's music as mezzo-soprano clef. When I lived in the UK a few years ago my brass band friends played trombone in treble clef. I spent some time trying to learn that syntax, and now my brain gets a little confused with the horn music. Not as confused as I expected. I've been able to play along with her on a handful of tunes.

[imsevimse]

During this Covid there is a lot of time to try different things.

I picked up my Kanstul Soprano trombone and my grandfathers french horn to play with.

I recognize what Doug says here about the shallow trumpet mouthpiece.

When I struggled with the soprano many years ago my lips hit the bottom of the trumpet mouthpiece. Since then I tried flugelhorn mouthpieces and cornet mouthpieces. It works for about 10 minutes and then I have had enough. I have now bought the Wycliffe Gordon Crossover mouthpiece with size 11 rim. Now the soprano is possible to play for longer sessions than 15 minutes. I have learned to avoid that the lips hit the bottom. I have been able to practice more and have now increased my register to a reliable f and today I even got the high Bb.

What made the difference was the raise of the tounge. As a tromboneplayer I have never thought much of that because I don't play that high much on trombone.

How I found out was I noticed the soprano was a bit flat on that high f. I thought that to be strange because on the tenor trombone the two ledger f is very sharp. I experimented with the tounge and noticed I could make it sharper and in tune with a little help of the tounge. I then tried G, A and Bb and raised the tongue even more. That decrease the cavaty of the mouth and the notes came out with not much trouble. When I discovered this I did not play loud at all. I guess volume will come. At the moment I'm quite happy I can get the notes.

What about the french horn?

Positive on my discovery of the Whycliff Gordon crossover mouthpiece trombone/trumpet. I searched the net for a crossover mouthpiece trombone/french horn. I could not find one. The one they sell at Chanson is a strange bastard. Trombone rim/ with trumpet cup and french horn backbore. They even admit at their homepage that this is not ideal and does not give the proper french horn sound. It is for teachers to be able to occasionally pick up a french horn to show their students. I could not find any video of a tromboneplayer who uses the crossover mouthpiece with a french horn. I gave up.

I decided to once again give the french horn a chance with a real french horn mouthpiece. Maybe my emboushure can cope better now. Last time I tried it was in the 90ies when I was a brass teacher. I then had a few beginners on french horn and bought my french horn mouthpiece when I started them. I remember I struggled with that mouthpiece.

I looked up a video to refresh how to place and use the hand in the bell. I have a fairly large french-horn mouthpiece Yamaha 33D4.

I agree the french horn mouthpiece is easier to play than a trumpet mouthpiece and I get a good sound on the french horn mouthpiece. What I've learned today is I need to place the mouthpiece higher on the lips. If I do then my sound is better.

My register on french horn at the moment is to octava The horn is a single horn in Bb.

My playable register on trumpet with the Chanson mouthpiece at the moment to octava

About the same register on both the french horn and the trumpet at the moment.

A lot of cracked notes but this is great fun

/Tom

[Kingfan]

Shawn, Greater Greenwood Community Band by any chance????

[imsevimse]

When you play trombone, your lips protrude somewhat into the mouthpiece. A trumpet or cornet mouthpiece cup is shallow enough that it doesn't allow that to happen and everything chokes off soon after you start playing and your lips swell a bit. A horn mouthpiece cup is much more forgiving of that, and that's actually how low notes are possible on such a small mouthpiece when the lips buzz with an in-and-out orientation.

Thank you Doug!

You are absolutely true. I have now a Conn 8D french horn on loan from a music shop to dig deeper into the world of the french horn. What better to do in the chaos of Corona then to learn new things.

The talk of the french horn mouthpiece above exactly describe what I'm experiencing. My register is now 8va basso to 8va on the F-side of the horn. I have reached as low as the C and as high as the F but very unstable at the moment. I practice everything on the f-side because I need to get better control there.

I find that french horn is rather easy to double for me and why not. It has the same register as the trombone. A trumpet has it's moneyregister much higher and it has a very shallow cup which needs a flatter emboushure just as you say. I can do it as high as f on the trumpet and occasional high notes but have not achieved any control and stamina up there. I fast get very tired so I can not play such a mouthpiece much.

On the Whycliff crossover mouthpiece the rim is big. It will limit the high register. The feeling right now is I will probably not be able to play much higher than I'm already doing on the trumpet with the crossover, but I'm not getting tired. This means I can play and practice a trumpet for longer sessions without any lip problems.

The french horn is different. After playing the horn for a while my highest register on the trombone is better and the french horn mouthpiece does not destroy my trombone chops at all and the tiring feeling is more healthy. I think it is the natural feeling from building french horn chops

In a thread half year ago I described I found out to use the image of a ducks bill to play better on the trombone. Another image is of a straw, and have the lips protrude to extend that straw forward. Both these images works on the french horn too. They do not work on the trumpet.

Try to play trumpet or cornet with a "flatter" embouchure set, less protruded.
This is stuff I teach in Skype lessons if you're interested.

Yes this is what I have to do on the soprano with the Whycliffe mouthpiece, but I'm not getting much higher than the fifth line f or at most the g above.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

The high range on trumpet requires a much higher tongue position and much more air compression.
And without seeing you play I can't guess what else might help.

[imsevimse]

The high range on trumpet requires a much higher tongue position and much more air compression.
And without seeing you play I can't guess what else might help.

Thanks! Yes I've noticed the higher tounge position helps. I have managed to go higher if I raise the tongue a lot and play with the smallest cavaty possible. For me it starts to get necessary around f. I must experiment a bit more because I'm rather new at this, maybe I should raise the tounge earlier. I sometimes manage to get the high Bb if I raise the tongue and play very soft, but it is tiring and I think the large Bach 11C-ish rim will limit my high range anyway. I will continue to practice my crossover mouthpiece and keep your advice in mind.

/Tom

[brtnats]

Thanks! Yes I've noticed the higher tounge position helps. I have managed to go higher if I raise the tongue a lot and play with the smallest cavaty possible. For me it starts to get necessary around f. I must experiment a bit more because I'm rather new at this, maybe I should raise the tounge earlier. I sometimes manage to get the high Bb if I raise the tongue and play very soft, but it is tiring and I think the large Bach 11C-ish rim will limit my high range anyway. I will continue to practice my crossover mouthpiece and keep your advice in mind.

/Tom

Tom, it will limit your high range, but I think it’s a combination of things. I play the same mouthpiece on my trumpet and soprano. Range is probably a 3rd higher than yours on trumpet. That high C is still work. I can reliably play higher on soprano trombone (more more open instrument), so I think it’s a combination of trumpet backpressure and mouthpiece/backbore pressure. I get dizzy after a few high Cs on trumpet. BUT, I can play enough trumpet range that I can reliably play the instrument in certain settings, and that’s what it’s all about. I REALLY like that I can switch between trumpet and small tenor without any noticeable transition time.

[bwanamfupi]

Shawn, Greater Greenwood Community Band by any chance????

Indianapolis Symphonic Band. Greenwood is a tad farther away. A colleague of mine played with them for a while.

[Kingfan]

Shawn, Greater Greenwood Community Band by any chance????

Indianapolis Symphonic Band. Greenwood is a tad farther away. A colleague of mine played with them for a while.

I lived in Southport, played in the Greenwood band and also a big band out of Musician's Repair. That was 20 years ago, tho...

[freeman]

FWIW -

I haven't messed around with horn since the early '90s, but I recently spent some time doubling btw trumpet and bass trombone while on extended covid-vacation. I agree with Doug about protrusion (though I'd warn against too much on any brass instrument), and can add that the biggest challenges for me were:

- finding the right trumpet mouthpiece, which turned out to be much smaller than what I thought I needed,

- recognizing register was not nearly as difficult to adjust to as the pressure difference (high pressure : low flow :: low pressure : high flow),

- finding out that where my embouchure wanted the mouthpiece to be was not the same spot as my aperture.

IME a mouthpiece built for the instrument in question is better than a "crossover" one, but I admit my experience with those is limited.

[Neo Bri]

It's important to note that most of the time the inner diameter is actually bigger than trumpet/cornet, though not always. I find going to cornet or trumpet isn't so bad, though generally I prefer to go from bigger to smaller if I'm on a recording session, etc.

Horn also doesn't have the same high-pitch requirements. High C on horn (F5 concert) is considered very high, but on cornet is commonplace. But the low-range requirements are pretty extreme on horn, considering it's really just an F tuba with a tiny mouthpiece. More to it than that, obviously, but that's the basics.

[bwanamfupi]

I lived in Southport, played in the Greenwood band and also a big band out of Musician's Repair. That was 20 years ago, tho...

I like Musician's Repair. Pre-COVID they were a couple blocks away from my office, so really easy to swing by before or after work. Really friendly, and they do a good job responding to quirky questions (e.g., "my daughter says this french horn buzzes when she plays, but I can't hear anything - would you mind taking a look).

[Kingfan]

I lived in Southport, played in the Greenwood band and also a big band out of Musician's Repair. That was 20 years ago, tho...

I like Musician's Repair. Pre-COVID they were a couple blocks away from my office, so really easy to swing by before or after work. Really friendly, and they do a good job responding to quirky questions (e.g., "my daughter says this french horn buzzes when she plays, but I can't hear anything - would you mind taking a look).

In the mid 90s I used to work for American States right downtown, also walking distance.