Embouchure for tuba doubler

[hyperbolica]

I'm doubling/dabbling in tuba. I've studied tenor tbone, but never tuba. I feel like I'm just putting a tuba mouthpiece on my face right over my trombone embouchure, and it's only kinda working. My upper lip has a definite ridge where the tbone mouthpiece rests. On tbone I'm very high placement, but on tuba I think I'm putting the mouthpiece on the same ridge as the tbone mouthpiece, which means I'm leading with my lower lip on tuba, which is a strange feeling. I'm using a Wick 4 or a Kelly 25. Bigger throats use too much air, but they do give a bigger sound (Kellyberg, Kelly 18)

I'm having reasonable success for only being a few weeks in. My range is from high Bb (middle treble staff) to low Eb (octave and a ledger line below bass staff), which seems ok. I'm splitting a lot of notes, though, and can't always hear the right partial, especially the higher ones. My sound is mostly ok, but sometimes gets nasal.

The problem seems to be fitting the big mouthpiece over my already developed (40+ years) trombone embouchure. Any insight?

[Doug Elliott]

I now have 3 tubas and a sousaphone, and I mess around on them. I wouldn't necessarily call it practicing, but I've gotten to where I successfully played a gig. I would say try for a placement of concentric circles, but your nose is probably in the way of that. I use a narrow rim but a fairly large size, and it works. But a contrabass piece also works amazingly well, except the bottom notes aren't really there.

It's tricky figuring out the bottom lip position and how it needs to change through the range. Really no different from trombone, just more extreme - it's going to be farther out for low notes but not to the point of being upstream, and it needs to pull back in as you ascend. That's probably where you're running into trouble, especially splitting notes.

[bassbone721]

I think that might be the case. I started doubling on tuba only about a year and a half after starting trombone and it took me a bit of time (few weeks of inconsistent practice and marching tuba) to get the embouchure to not double buzz. I'm not sure how to do it but I assume it'll take a bit of messing around to find out what'll work for you. (I play on a PT-88L)

[hyperbolica]

Doug,

Yeah I think you understand. On bone I'm down stream, but some notes on tuba feel like it changes to up stream. I'm playing a Mack 422 3/4 BBb, which is like a Yamaha 622. It feels like my tbone embouchure muscles (and almost a callous on my upper lip) are getting in the way of playing tuba properly.

Should I just forget about forming an embouchure as trombonists think of it, and just flap my lips inside the mouthpiece?.

[marccromme]

Should I just forget about forming an embouchure as trombonists think of it, and just flap my lips inside the mouthpiece?.

Yes and no. I double tenor, bass trombone and EB and Bb tuba. My experience is that the larger the mouthpiece, and the lower the actual notes played, the more my lips will follow the air stream into the bowl. But no uncontrolled flapping. The smaller the mouthpiece, and the higher the note, the embouchure resembles my normal trombone embouchure, even on a BB tuba

Same tone played on different instruments or mouthpiece sizes has almoust same embouchure, no matter if it is tenor trombone or EB tuba, but it feels different due to changes in rim or resistance.

I regard my embouchure as a continous slight change, mostly dictated by actual pitch and volume played. Feeling of mouthpiece is secondary. In very high range there is not enough support in a large rim, and in very low range my emouchure has not enough place in a tenor trombone mouthpiece., but otherwise, its the same.

Thats how I think of it,another visualization might work better for you.

[MagnumH]

Yes and no. I double tenor, bass trombone and EB and Bb tuba. My experience is that the larger the mouthpiece, and the lower the actual notes played, the more my lips will follow the air stream into the bowl. But no uncontrolled flapping. The smaller the mouthpiece, and the higher the note, the embouchure resembles my normal trombone embouchure, even on a BB tuba

Same tone played on different instruments or mouthpiece sizes has almoust same embouchure, no matter if it is tenor trombone or EB tuba, but it feels different due to changes in rim or resistance.

I regard my embouchure as a continous slight change, mostly dictated by actual pitch and volume played. Feeling of mouthpiece is secondary. In very high range there is not enough support in a large rim, and in very low range my emouchure has not enough place in a tenor trombone mouthpiece., but otherwise, its the same.

Thats how I think of it,another visualization might work better for you.

I do some (very) casual sousaphone doubling and I have exactly the same approach. The notes are formed the same way but the interaction with the mouthpiece differs. And actually, playing within the tuba mouthpiece helps me solidify my bone embouchure because it takes away the reliance on the rim to an extent.

[hyperbolica]

So do you guys do the concentric placement for bone and tuba mouthpieces, or anchor the top of the mouthpiece, or how do you deal with placement.

Also, as a doubler, what tuba mouthpiece do you use?

[Doug Elliott]

I just looked to remind myself what a Wick 4 is... very small, middle of my CB series. And the 25 is probably not much bigger.

See email from me.

[marccromme]

So do you guys do the concentric placement for bone and tuba mouthpieces, or anchor the top of the mouthpiece, or how do you deal with placement.

Also, as a doubler, what tuba mouthpiece do you use?

Concentric is not really an option, size differs too much, and nose is in the way. But yes, the rim placement of tenor is inside bass trombone, is inside EB tuba, is inside BBC tuba. Quite naturally. I don't think over it, just let it find its place where it wants to be.

I play almost any mouthpiece, from Bach 6.5 over Yamaha 48 on medium bore, laskey 59 MD and D, Schilke symphonic 5.2 * D on large bore, Yamaha Yeo and Black Grieg 1.25 and Laskey 85 MD on bass, Yamaha 58 on euph, DW AT 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 on Yamaha EB 321, Meinl Weston 2141 EB, and cerveny bb tuba.

I let the instrument decide what works best, in terms of alignment of partials and pedals, and balance of sound and flexibility.

I don't care so much about the rim sizes, although I prefer slimmer rims with a good edge.

And I practice the shift from one to the other each day. This way, I can shift instrument in the middle of a concert.

[hyperbolica]

My problem is that over the years, my lip has developed a "density differential". Or something. If I run my finger from the underside of my nose to the center of my top lip, the flesh right under the nose is very thick, then about 1/2" down there is a definite ledge - a change in thickness/density of my lip caused by where my trombone mouthpiece has rested for decades.

Did you ever see Maynard Ferguson's top lip? He had this crazy flappy tab thing going on. Mine's not nearly that bad, but it's sort of the same idea.

The problem is that I can't really get the tuba mouthpiece up on that thick part of flesh, so I can't get it right under my nose. It doesn't sit flat. It gets up against the ledge from the thin to the thick part of the top lip, and it just settles into the place where the trombone mouthpiece has worn a groove. My tenor mouthpiece is not that much smaller than my bass piece, so moving back and forth bass to tenor kind of works. I wasn't able to change mouthpieces easily until I started using Doug's mouthpieces in a larger size (104 rim).

Oh, and Doug, thx for the email. I sent a response.