Cheek puffing in lower register

[aasavickas]

I was watching a recording of a concert I played a while back on bass trombone. I noticed I do a fair amount of cheek puffing on one side of my face when I play stuff in the trigger register just above pedal Bb. Especially if the lower notes are loud.

I'm not a big fan of using mirrors or rims to watch what I do because I think that gets too focused on the look of the embouchure rather than the sound and feel. Also, every persons face, teeth, tongue, etc is different so what an individual looks like is relative and bound to be different. I have had the best luck with Reinhardt pivot and his other embouchure stuff.


Overall, I am happy with my playing(always trying to be better and experiments of course). I play everything from Bass up to Alto comfortably and have a range from the double pedals up to a little higher than a super Bb. In general, I am mostly happy with my range, sound, articulation, connections etc.

I know the traditional embouchure pedagogy is to avoid cheek puffing. I tend to not have much luck with traditional embouchure techniques and try to figure out what works for me.

I was watching a video of James Markey giving a university level low brass sectional. He was explaining the shift most bass trombonists use to get the face further back and add some angle in order to give the lip more room to vibrate in the cup when playing very low and loud which is uncontroversial and common.

He then added that the bass trombone player would have clearer articulations if he didn't puff his cheeks.

I am going to experiment with attempting not to puff and playing the way I have developed naturally to see if there are any improvements or positive trade-offs.

Curious what the other folks on here have found, especially the bass trombone players.

[aasavickas]

Here is a link to the sectional. Markey is a fantastic player and teacher and has a nice way about him when instructing these young players.

Check it out if you are interested.

Note: The sound is horrible. I think the mics and placement was bad. I'm sure the kids sound better than it appears on the recording but there is still plenty of good stuff to pick up.

[Wilktone]

A lot of brass players puff their cheeks in the extreme register. With low brass I think we'll see it more often in the very low register, but you also see it with trumpet players in their extreme high register.

If a cheek puff is used for whatever reason it's probably best if you can keep the cheek puff back away from your mouth corners. Try to avoid collapsing your embouchure formation to descend and keep the mouth corners firmly in place.

The lower you can go without resorting to a cheek puff the better in the long term, I feel. Use your practice time to drill descending with little to no cheek puff. Don't worry about it in rehearsal and performance and use what works to get the job done. Over time you'll need to resort less to the cheek puff.

Dave

[aasavickas]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a shot. I don't think the one side puffing a little is disturbing the corners but I suspect less puff would be better.

I have noticed that I have a tendency to over relax the corners down low and if i focus on keeping the corners firmer down low I get a better response and sound as well as clearer articulation.

I've spent a bunch of time on your website and really appreciate the information. I've made some real improvements since studying your stuff.

So much embochure information is just plain goofy or wrong. It is nice to see someone who really studied it and can explain it clearly.

So, thanks again.

[Doug Elliott]

You say "I have noticed that I have a tendency to over relax the corners down low and if i focus on keeping the corners firmer down low I get a better response and sound as well as clearer articulation."

Practice with those firmer corners, since it does give you better results. Don't worry much about what happens when you're just playing. Practicing is for correcting the mistakes you make the rest of the time.

[GabrielRice]

Practice with those firmer corners, since it does give you better results. Don't worry much about what happens when you're just playing. Practicing is for correcting the mistakes you make the rest of the time.

Yes! Over time, the habits you reinforce when you practice stay there when you're completely focused on music. It doesn't happen right away.

You have to do something consciously for a while in order for it to become subconscious.

[imsevimse]

Loose corners are no good. Not in any registers if you want control. Loose corners only work as long as what you are doing is very, very easy. As soon as you have leaps or fast passages or other technical stuff with high demands of control it holds you back, so never allow that to happen.

Cheeks can puff slightly as long as mouthcorners are not loose. You do what you have to do to get a nice sound. If that helps in the low register it may be what you need to do.

/Tom

[brassmedic]

I think you should reconsider your reluctance to use a mirror. The problem with going solely by "feel" is that we often do things with our embouchure that we are unaware of. With the mirror, you can still concentrate on your sound, but if the sound you are getting is not optimal, you can immediately see what might be causing the trouble. When I'm having trouble with tone production in the low range, I get out the mirror and almost always notice that I am relaxing the corners too much.

[aasavickas]

Good point on the mirror. I will give it a try.

I think mirrors are a bit like using tumors or metronomes. I don't mind using a tuner for a quick check but prefer to rely on playing against a reference for tuning bc that is how you tune in real life.and adjust as things change. With metronomes, I don't mind checking the tempo to get the right speed, but then prefer to keep good internal time or play along with something for the same reason.

I suspect using a mirror is similar, if done occasionally as a check up, no problem.

I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the idea

[Doug Elliott]

Mirrors don't lie, and metronomes are never wrong.
Use them.

[Wilktone]

Just to throw in some random info:

I've had an interest in close up magic since I was a kid and still occasionally get together with a local magic club. One thing that magicians have learned about mirror practice is that you can fool yourself into thinking it looks good. There is a subconscious desire for things to look good in the mirror and while practicing magicians will end up looking away or blinking just at the time when you're supposed to be watching in the mirror. You literally have to train yourself to not do this. Novice magicians who do mirror practice often have a "tell" of blinking any time they make a secret move.

I've noticed that when I'm using a mirror to practice trombone that I sometimes do the same thing. Students of mine that I'm using a mirror with to get them to notice something will frequently not see what I'm trying to get them to notice because they're thinking about other things while playing and naturally look away or blink when they make the slur or whatever.

Mirror practice is good for immediate feedback on something that you already know what to look for and as long as you have enough of a grasp on what you're playing that you can handle the additional cognitive load to both play something and watch critically at the same time.

Video recording, if you have a good enough setup, is the best way. It also allows you to go back and watch the same thing many times and look at different parts of your technique. Audio recording, particularly using some software that both provides a click track for you to play along with and a means of visually seeing how your wave form matches the beat, is better feedback than simply practicing with the metronome. While we're in the act of practicing things we have trouble focusing on multiple things at the same time. Being able to remove ourselves from the observation process and then go back to the video or audio for feedback provides the most accurate method of self-observation, in my opinion.


Dave

[Doug Elliott]

And there are a lot of students who absolutely refuse to look in a mirror. I see it all the time in lessons when I put a mirror on the stand and I can see their eyes wandering instead of looking at what I want them to see.

[aasavickas]

Interesting point about people flinching on looking at the mirror at critical points.

I will try the video recording with a decent mic. That sounds like a great way to observe it without the cognitive load of playing while observing. Plus, no chance of doing something different when looking then falling back to bad habits when not looking or being blind to what you are trying to see in the mirror.

Weird that people are uncomfortable looking in a mirror while playing.

[Wilktone]

And there are a lot of students who absolutely refuse to look in a mirror. I see it all the time in lessons when I put a mirror on the stand and I can see their eyes wandering instead of looking at what I want them to see.

Weird that people are uncomfortable looking in a mirror while playing.

Consider this, it's not that people are "uncomfortable" or "refuse" to use a mirror, but that there are powerful psychological urges to not do so. As I mentioned above, magicians who use mirror practice have to learn how to use it properly and it's still considered less effort and more effective to use video recording (including the audio recording in the case of music).

Next chance you get, ask someone a weird question or ask them to perform a math question in their head or something else that requires some thought. Watch their eyes as they process your question and see what they look at.

When we try to think about something it's natural for our eyes to look somewhere. Now consider if you ask someone to watch something that requires thought. They will be fighting the urge to both watch what you want them to and naturally process the thought at the same time. The more effort require to perform that task, the greater the cognitive load that leads to less attention available to observe. If you ask someone to watch themselves in a mirror while you ask them to perform a musical task that exposes a habitual weakness, there's already going to be that tendency to look away while they think about what they need to do in order to perform that task - even (or especially) if they are not consciously aware of the amount of thought and effort required.

So I don't think it's necessarily the student's fault that they can't watch themselves while the play across their embouchure break or collapse their mouth corners - they have to work very hard to play wrong (or what I might consider to be "wrong") and just can't both perform that task and observe it at the same time.

Dave

[Basbasun]

We all have a "face expression" when we put the mpc to our mouth. When we start the blow something happens to the "face expression".
Exactly when we start the playing some of us do a slight pucker, the corners move forvard. Very little, just the corners. That is more noticeble on the low range. I know this can be difficult to understand, maybe I should word i in another way. Do some experiments on it, if you find what I am tolk about, and you think it works for you, good use it, if not ditch it. It is good to have a little control of the corners on the low range.
Many basstrombonists have a distening of the cheeks in the low range, but they might still have that control of the corners.

The word "pucker" can be understood in many ways, a kiss can be a pucker, but that is not it.
Still, the most important is the sound.

[GBP]

And there are a lot of students who absolutely refuse to look in a mirror. I see it all the time in lessons when I put a mirror on the stand and I can see their eyes wandering instead of looking at what I want them to see.

I can see this happening especially in young students who are still in that awkward age. I teach 5 and 6 graders and have found sometimes there is a level of uncomfortableness about doing certain things

[BGuttman]

And there are a lot of students who absolutely refuse to look in a mirror. I see it all the time in lessons when I put a mirror on the stand and I can see their eyes wandering instead of looking at what I want them to see.

I can see this happening especially in young students who are still in that awkward age. I teach 5 and 6 graders and have found sometimes there is a level of uncomfortableness about doing certain things

It's tough to look at the mouthpiece when you are concerned about the zits showing