The sound in your head

[Vegasbound]

We trombonists will often talk about 'the sound in my head' now we know what it means, but others often just look bemused as you try and explain your own idea of the trombone sound we are striving to make come out of the bell, and how it seems to be a life long search for equipment choices etc

I have never enjoyed playing large bore horns, although I have had too and do when absolutely needed because to me its not the sound I hear in my head

So how did that sound you strive for get there?

Mine came from an lp released in 1973 " Lusher & Lusher & Lusher Don Lusher and his bigband sound of the 70's"

my father must have bought it from one of the trade stands at a brass band comp, and for me at the age of 8 I just loved the way Don's horn sailed over the band for someone growing up surrounded by that british brass band style it was a revelation, lucky my father had a very good hi-fi and big wharfdale speakers

this track was a particular favourite

the bone section was DL Bobby Lamb, Nat peck and Ray Premru, and the rest of the band was made up of the first call players in London

Tracklist
A1 Raggin' A Bone
A2 There'll Always Be Another Spring
A3 Les Filles De Paris
A4 Sometime, Somewhere
A5 Alfie
A6 Carnaby Chick
B1 Without A Song
B2 What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life
B3 A Long Way From Home
B4 It Never Ends
B5 The Sea, The Sand And The Shore
B6 The Typewriter

So where did the sound in your head come from?

[FOSSIL]

tinitus

Chris

[Vegasbound]

tinitus

Chris

havent we all, I spent too many years on horse guards not to suffer a bit of that!

[EdwardSolomon]

Ray Premru, Bob Hughes, Frank Mathison, George Roberts, Ben van Dijk, Stefan Schultz

[ArbanRubank]

One of the sounds that got into my head was from Frank Fontaine's comedy routine on the Jackie Gleason Show during the "Joe The Bartender" skit. His baritone voice was amazing - especially after his comedy routine. I guess I should have wanted to play a baritone, but there were other reasons why I went to trombone. I subsequently liked any trombone player who could capture a piece of that sound.

[Vegasbound]

Ray Premru, Bob Hughes, Frank Mathison, George Roberts, Ben van Dijk, Stefan Schultz

Yes, but how did it get there? was there one recording or performance that influenced you as a youngster .....not just a list of names but was there that light bulb moment?

Bob Hughes on the recording of Alpine Symphony, or anyone who heard Les Lake in the opera Dr Atomic tht was monstrous bass bone playing

[Fidbone]

Michael Brecker.........

[Vegasbound]

Michael Brecker.........

but why?

[Bach5G]

One of my teachers playing Bach in a practice room in particular, as well as other players (good and bad) that I’ve played with. I liked Stefan Schultz's Berlin recording.

[BGuttman]

When I qualified for the Music program in 5th grade (about age 10) I was assigned a trombone. My parents then had me listen to their Tommy Dorsey records. That sound later changed. I liked the smoothness of TD, but the tone was rather thin. My later toneconcept came from my first major teacher, Jack Nowinsky.. He put me onto a more symphonic sound. I wish I could really find that sound, but I'd need to practice more

[Vegasbound]

“You want a new mouthpiece. You need a new mouthpiece. It will make you as good as Charles Vernon.”

An attempt at humour I know, but not really what I was trying to ask you to do, after 7weeks in lockdown with no ensemble playing and too much time on our hands I am hoping for more than one liners!

[ArbanRubank]

Specifically, it was the Harold Betters "Even Better" (1963) album that put the sound of what I determined a trombone ought to sound like firmly into my head. To narrow that down even further, it was my favorite cut on that album "After You're Gone" that hooked me as a sound AND melodic playing style.

Frank Fontaine's voice (no specific episode) - along with Karen Carpenter's and Jim Morrison's (The Doors) voices (in general) all re-enforced my over-all sound concept. What I liked about TD's sound was it's tonal saturation.

Oh, and lest I forget Elvis's voice! "Love Me Tender" will do nicely. Dean Martin's "Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime".

Having a sound concept in my head is a very complex amalgam of a lot of sound concepts rolled into one.

[imsevimse]

The sound "in my head" except the sound from tinnitus?

I have had a teacher with a very good sound I never forget. I think his sound is where my sound comes from when I play bass trombone because he is a bass trombone player. I try my very best to sound like that

Since I'm most of the time on smaller equipment I've had a couple of other sounds added. One is the sound of Branimir Slokar on alto. I bought a lot of his records in the early 80ies and listened carefully. I find his alto sound as something extra.

On tenor I listened a lot to the Canadian Brass in 1984-1988 and liked the sound of Eugene Watts. I remember I told my teacher at the accademy about it and I remember I played him an excerpt as we were talking about ideals and raw models. From his reaction I understood that Eugene Watts was not his favourite . Later I heard other classical tenor players like Alessi and Lindbergh and think they have great sounds but still not what I have in mind, instead I discovered the tromboneplayer Miles Andersson. I only have one record "Miles Andersson plays his slide trombones again" and that sound appealed to me very much. I think he has a lighter sound compared to others. On the cover it looks like he plays a Bach 36. I think that's the sound I have in my head when I imagine my best tenor sound. It could be why I also like .525 horns for classical playing

For jazz solo and improvisation my idols are J.J, Kay Vinding, Carl Fontana, Frank Rosolini, Bill Watrous, Jack Teagarden and Urbie Green. Improvisatiin is so much more than sound.

When it comes to big band lead playing then the sound I imagine is the sound of the late Åke Persson. I've heard him only on records but that sound is so huge and full of timbre. Two great Swedish lead players I've played with are Torgny Nilsson and Olav Holmquist, both of them are gone now. They are of course raw models too. Nothing beats to sit in the section and hear and follow your raw models in a live situation. That experience is strong.

/Tom

[FOSSIL]

“You want a new mouthpiece. You need a new mouthpiece. It will make you as good as Charles Vernon.”

An attempt at humour I know, but not really what I was trying to ask you to do, after 7weeks in lockdown with no ensemble playing and too much time on our hands I am hoping for more than one liners!

After these weeks of lockdown a bit of humour might be all that some of us can manage...but I'll try...
Tinitus was indeed a joke, but also a reality...the gift of 53 years of music making, and pretty full on most of the time. That other inspirational sound in my head is of course, an amalgam of several players... the London players of my youth... Premru,, Mathieson, Spain, Abel in the Symphonies. A player a couple of years older than me, Brian Lynn who I first met age 12.... Brian was always a couple of years ahead of me (obviously) and always an example to me...I followed him to the Guildhall School of Music and later to Scottish Opera... great sound, great player. Of the wider world it was, of course George Roberts... I am so glad that I got to meet him and thank him for that inspiration.
All these people are still in my head...and in my heart.

Chris

[norbie2018]

Ralph Sauer from his solo album filled my mind when I was a kid. Still floating around in there to this day.

[hyperbolica]

The second private teacher I had was a bass trombone player. Even though I am a tenor player, his deeply textured sound stuck with me.

Bill Watrous came to a nearby town when I was in high school and I was fascinated. Even though it was a lot of sound engineering, that airy, up close, miked sound has always been part of what I try to achieve whenI play in non-classical style. .

I also listened endlessly to Empire and Canadian Brass as well as the Philip Jones recording I had. That bright, declaratory style of playing came to characterize what I thought was the epitome of Brass playing.

I grew up with an 88h, and the horn gave a lot of feedback (in a good way) when I was playing well. So I learned to love that particular sound and feel.

And of course there were Maynard and Chuck Mangione. I learned there was more to life than right notes, for better or worse.

[Vegasbound]

An attempt at humour I know, but not really what I was trying to ask you to do, after 7weeks in lockdown with no ensemble playing and too much time on our hands I am hoping for more than one liners!

After these weeks of lockdown a bit of humour might be all that some of us can manage...but I'll try...
Tinitus was indeed a joke, but also a reality...the gift of 53 years of music making, and pretty full on most of the time. That other inspirational sound in my head is of course, an amalgam of several players... the London players of my youth... Premru,, Mathieson, Spain, Abel in the Symphonies. A player a couple of years older than me, Brian Lynn who I first met age 12.... Brian was always a couple of years ahead of me (obviously) and always an example to me...I followed him to the Guildhall School of Music and later to Scottish Opera... great sound, great player. Of the wider world it was, of course George Roberts... I am so glad that I got to meet him and thank him for that inspiration.
All these people are still in my head...and in my heart.

Chris

I think Ray Premru's influence is still being felt in British bass bone playing, and bringing in the topic from another thread may be why the set ups preferred here in respect of mouthpieces and horns......would be interested to know your thoughts Chris?

Seems that when he was here Ray was first call for everything and all genre's

[FOSSIL]

Yes, Ray was a massive influence. He was a very,very busy guy... you have reminded me of that whole other side of the business... a lot of busy people outside the orchestras. How did I miss out Steve Saunders ? Steve is probably the most natural player I have ever come across...he can pick up anything and make it sound amazing. He also played in the BBC Symphony orchestra for many years. Such a nice guy.
I have to say that bass trombone playing in the UK today is most influenced by my old friend Bob Hughes, no question. Bob's playing was considered the gold standard by everyone....his sound was legendary and he has taught more players here than anyone else. That Conn 62H Bach 2G vibe is his inheritance.
I can claim a small hand in that....I think the first Conn60H that he tried was mine, and I could see he was smitten. He acquired a Conn 70H, then on a tour of the USA with the RSNO, a 60H. A 62H followed and I sold him a second 62H and the stable was complete. You have to remember that in pre internet days it was next to impossible to find old Conns in the UK so it took Bob several years to assemble those horns. Having said all that, Bob's playing was all about him, not equipment and he was great on the Holton TR180 (my fault again...Bob's dad asked me what I was playing at a NYJO concert and he bought Bob the same) and the Bach 50BL that he used before the Conns.
Most of the wonderful players of the next generation were taught by Bob and now they pass the flame on to that new generation taking over the business here in the UK.

Chris

[imsevimse]

.. of course George Roberts... I am so glad that I got to meet him and thank him for that inspiration.
All these people are still in my head...and in my heart.

Chris

George Robert's is the big influence of my teacher and he actually was known here under the mem "The Swedish George Roberts" . It means I almost had George as my teacher . George Roberts I discovered much later, such a fine player. Raymond Premru was the bass trombone player on the Philip Jones records I bought. Those two are my idols on bass trombone next to Sven Larsson.

The late modern basstrombone sound favoured by many fantastic players is not for me and the same with the modern tenor sound. I do like modern tenor and bass sounds but I think I will never be able to sound like that. I favour small bore tenor trombones from .485 up to .525, with those tenors I think I produce my best sounds. On bass I favour all my single basses and then my Kanstul 1662 and my Conn 73h and Conn 62h.

I do like different sounds so it would be a corona experiment and try to see if I can go in that direction but I think I need to favour bigger equipment too. Need to listen a lot to Ben van Dijk and Joseph Allessi and play .547 tenors and maybe a dual bore bass. I guess I need more chops too to be able to play the larger equipment and mouthpieces. That might help, but again it might be less difference than I think because as this thread says what matters most is "the sound in your head". I might try the Yamaha 612R with a 1G which is setup I think would be in that direction or I could try my Benge 290. On tenor I would probably go with my Bach 42B and a Hammond 11L.That would probably give me a very dark sound and a lot of work.

/Tom

[EdwardSolomon]

Ray Premru, Bob Hughes, Frank Mathison, George Roberts, Ben van Dijk, Stefan Schultz

Yes, but how did it get there? was there one recording or performance that influenced you as a youngster .....not just a list of names but was there that light bulb moment?

Bob Hughes on the recording of Alpine Symphony, or anyone who heard Les Lake in the opera Dr Atomic tht was monstrous bass bone playing

It's difficult to know where to start. I recall seeing Ray Premru on TV as a teenager when the Philharmonia Orchestra performed Belshazzar's Feast as part of a William Walton birthday programme with Walton himself present in the Royal Festival Hall.

I was blown away by Harry Spain when I went to see the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra in rehearsal working on Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story.

I experienced the Boulez Ring cycle from Bayreuth on television and heard the sound of Joachim Mittelacher on contrabass trombone, still a magnificent sound today.

I saw the Philharmonia with Bob Hughes several times - in Edinburgh at the Usher Hall, in London at the Royal Albert Hall and the Royal Festival Hall, each time confirming in my mind that the finest low brass section at the time - with the most refined sound - was the Philharmonia Orchestra. Sure, the LSO could blow them away in American music, but the Philharmonia for me had (and still has) a special sound, though all the London orchestras are very much improved and perform to a very high standard today.

I grew up with my mother listening to the likes of Frank Sinatra and the other famous ballad singers of the 1950s (her childhood years), so I very much became used to hearing the Billy May and Nelson Riddle recordings with George Roberts and later Chris Riddle on bass trombone. That was my introduction to the lighter side and it still resonates today.

Stefan Schultz I heard live when German Brass came to London and performed at the Guildhall School of Music & Drama. He stood in for Uwe Füssel and it was as close as I got to hearing the sound I adore listening to in the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall (about as good as it gets with orchestral video broadcasting). His sound is rich and ever-present.

After meeting Ben van Dijk, Ray Premru, Bob Hughes, I know that they're more than mere trombone idols. They're really lovely people. They're warm-hearted, generous, and highly skilled professionals, who brought their expertise to their craft for all of our benefit, and I think of them now as far more than just a sound in my head. It's more like an entire experience. Although Harry Spain, Ray Premru and Bob Hughes are no longer able to provide living examples of their craft on the trombone, Ben van Dijk most certainly does and when you get to know that warm, loving person behind the instrument, you soon learn to appreciate that sound as an extension of the person's very being - his soul, even. All that warmth and kindness is there in the sound. It sings to you.

I'm not short of examples of recorded music to cite, but feel a much greater affinity with the live music I've experienced directly involving these trombonists, such that it is that very sound that lives on in my head.

[Vegasbound]

Yes, but how did it get there? was there one recording or performance that influenced you as a youngster .....not just a list of names but was there that light bulb moment?

Bob Hughes on the recording of Alpine Symphony, or anyone who heard Les Lake in the opera Dr Atomic tht was monstrous bass bone playing

It's difficult to know where to start. I recall seeing Ray Premru on TV as a teenager when the Philharmonia Orchestra performed Belshazzar's Feast as part of a William Walton birthday programme with Walton himself present in the Royal Festival Hall.

I was blown away by Harry Spain when I went to see the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra in rehearsal working on Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story.

I experienced the Boulez Ring cycle from Bayreuth on television and heard the sound of Joachim Mittelacher on contrabass trombone, still a magnificent sound today.

I saw the Philharmonia with Bob Hughes several times - in Edinburgh at the Usher Hall, in London at the Royal Albert Hall and the Royal Festival Hall, each time confirming in my mind that the finest low brass section at the time - with the most refined sound - was the Philharmonia Orchestra. Sure, the LSO could blow them away in American music, but the Philharmonia for me had (and still has) a special sound, though all the London orchestras are very much improved and perform to a very high standard today.

I grew up with my mother listening to the likes of Frank Sinatra and the other famous ballad singers of the 1950s (her childhood years), so I very much became used to hearing the Billy May and Nelson Riddle recordings with George Roberts and later Chris Riddle on bass trombone. That was my introduction to the lighter side and it still resonates today.

Stefan Schultz I heard live when German Brass came to London and performed at the Guildhall School of Music & Drama. He stood in for Uwe Füssel and it was as close as I got to hearing the sound I adore listening to in the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall (about as good as it gets with orchestral video broadcasting). His sound is rich and ever-present.

After meeting Ben van Dijk, Ray Premru, Bob Hughes, I know that they're more than mere trombone idols. They're really lovely people. They're warm-hearted, generous, and highly skilled professionals, who brought their expertise to their craft for all of our benefit, and I think of them now as far more than just a sound in my head. It's more like an entire experience. Although Harry Spain, Ray Premru and Bob Hughes are no longer able to provide living examples of their craft on the trombone, Ben van Dijk most certainly does and when you get to know that warm, loving person behind the instrument, you soon learn to appreciate that sound as an extension of the person's very being - his soul, even. All that warmth and kindness is there in the sound. It sings to you.

I'm not short of examples of recorded music to cite, but feel a much greater affinity with the live music I've experienced directly involving these trombonists, such that it is that very sound that lives on in my head.

Thanks Ed great response..... So is the sound in our head more than just that, inter connected with memories? Is that why we strive for that particular sound? Because it is truly embedded within us because of the memories associated with it?

[EdwardSolomon]

Thanks Ed great response..... So is the sound in our head more than just that, inter connected with memories? Is that why we strive for that particular sound? Because it is truly embedded within us because of the memories associated with it?

Perhaps so, for stripped of its context, a trombone is a trombone is a trombone, right? Everything has and must have a context. When those sounds we have in our head are placed in their correct context, be that particular memories or experiences, the powerful interplay between them - in much the same way as smell can also trigger memories, such as detergent used on a primary school floor - can move us in ways we cannot preempt.

[dershem]

Michael Brecker.........

but why?

WHy not?

[Vegasbound]

but why?

WHy not?

Cc
Thanks for your insightful input

[VJOFan]

I got my first sound concept trying to match my first teacher’s 10 inch bell, symphonic bass trombone playing on my Conn Director.

Form there I became a mimic, copying the sound and style of whoever I was playing with or the genre I was playing.