Slide Cleaning. Dry/Wet?

[PaulT]

I use one of those "terry towel sheaths" on a cleaning rod for cleaning the inside of the outer slide tube.

Most recommendations I've seen for cleaning the outer slide with one of these "sheathed" cleaning rods involve using the sheath dry, i.e., insert the dry sheathed rod inside the tube and then move it back and forth quickly (building heat?)

I am a little leery of cleaning via dry friction (I wash a car with soapy water, I don't dry sand it.) So I first run warm water through the slide tube, then I moisten the cloth sheath, squirt some Dawn detergent on it, and run the sheathed rod back and forth inside the tube. When done, I rinse the tube out well, again, with warm water. I don't dry the inside of the outer slide tube when I'm done cleaning as the the next step is applying Yamaha slide lube and I regard the residual moisture as a plus.

Am I missing a trick here? Should I be using a dry cloth and friction to clean the inside of the slide tube rather than warm water and detergent in conjunction with friction? Should I be drying the inside of the tube after cleaning even though the next step involves lube and water?

My intent here is not to question anyone else's approach, I am a "there are many ways to trap a gopher" person. It is just with the prevalence of "dry cleaners", I am wondering if there might be a possible issue with my approach (as I can't envision one).

[BrerCottonmouth]

I'm jumping in here just because I want to see what everyone else thinks about the good point you raise. When I thoroughly clean my horns, I use the tried and true method of soaking them in a bathtub in warm soapy water. So that's a wet cleaning. But when I lube my slide, I wipe the inner down with a clean, soft cloth and then clean the inside of the outer slide with a long strip of cheesecloth on a cleaning rod. Pretty standard method, I think. But now you've got me thinking about that try cheesecloth on the rod. After a few cleanings, it does get dirty with that green brass residue. So maybe I'm removing a small amount of brass with each cleaning—not a good thing, esp since I play vintage horns. I doubt it's a problem, though, or everyone who uses this method would probably have noticed it by now.

So I'm curious what everyone thinks about this issue. I'm sure not the only one out there using the dry cheesecloth on a rod method.

[GabrielRice]

Lots of good questions here, and a little bit of misinformation. The info I'm about to give you comes from master trombone builder Steve Shires, whom I worked for and is a good friend.

First of all, the best use of that terrycloth-on-the-rod thing is to dry the insides of the outer tubes before you put the instrument in the case at the end of the day. Every day.

An even better, more effective tool for that is muslin cloth wrapped around a cleaning rod, made tight enough that there is resistance when you insert it in the inner tube - not so much that you can't move it, but just enough that you have to work a little to move it. You WANT the friction. Neither terrycloth nor cheesecloth give you the friction you need. The metal surface of the slide is completely different from the painted surface of a car, and the cleaning needs are not at all the same.

The reason you want the friction is that you want to dry the surface as thoroughly as possible (corrosion happens when wet brass is air-drying), and you want to remove as much corrosion as you can. The green on your cheesecloth is corrosion, not the underlying metal. It's good that it's coming off, because when it builds up it causes poor action and eventually wear of the chrome plating on the inner tubes.

As to wet or dry, go with dry OR use rubbing alcohol, which will clean better and evaporate quickly, leaving no corrosion behind.

And to go another step further, I highly recommend snaking the HW Brass Saver through the assembled slide as another step, to clean and dry the insides of the inner tubes and crook.

[timothy42b]

It may seem strange but Gabe's advice is even more true for a pBone. You need to wipe the inners dry frequently and swab the outers dry even more often, and never put it away dry. At home I never put it away with the slide assembled. It's wiped dry, inside and out, and then left to air dry some more.

[Posaunus]

Lots of good questions here, and a little bit of misinformation. The info I'm about to give you comes from master trombone builder Steve Shires, whom I worked for and is a good friend.

An even better, more effective tool for that is muslin cloth wrapped around a cleaning rod, made tight enough that there is resistance when you insert it in the inner tube - not so much that you can't move it, but just enough that you have to work a little to move it. You WANT the friction. Neither terrycloth nor cheesecloth give you the friction you need. The metal surface of the slide is completely different from the painted surface of a car, and the cleaning needs are not at all the same.

And to go another step further, I highly recommend snaking the HW Brass Saver through the assembled slide as another step, to clean and dry the insides of the inner tubes and crook.

Thanks Gabe,

This approach matches my protocol. I was also taught to clean slides regularly (sometimes for me it's not quite every day ). My only concern when drying the interior of the inner slide is the potential for damaging or dislodging the fixed leadpipe, so I am very careful in that area. Of course it's pretty easy to visually inspect the interior of the inner slides - if they shine blindingly when held up to a light, you can be sure there's no debris, deposits, or moisture there.

On all of my several slides, I see almost NO green residue (copper oxide / corrosion) on my cleaning cloth (I use strips of cotton bedsheet instead of cheesecloth or muslin). I figure I must be doing something right - these are old slides (some 40-60 years old), and are impeccable condition.

I also treasure the HWP Brass-Saver – I know of nothing else that will clean and dry the slide crook (and bell!).

[bigbandbone]

Every other week I put a large "Spitballs" through each inner slide and the outer slide (to clean the crook). Then double nap flannel wrapped around a cleaning rod for the outer tubes.
That's the routine I've always used.

[GabrielRice]

I also treasure the HWP Brass-Saver – I know of nothing else that will clean and dry the slide crook (and bell!).

Excellent. Don't use the cleaning rod on the inner tubes - the Brass Saver will do what you need there.

[Posaunus]

First of all, the best use of that terrycloth-on-the-rod thing is to dry the insides of the outer tubes before you put the instrument in the case at the end of the day. Every day.

An even better, more effective tool for that is muslin cloth wrapped around a cleaning rod, made tight enough that there is resistance when you insert it in the inner tube - not so much that you can't move it, but just enough that you have to work a little to move it. You WANT the friction. Neither terrycloth nor cheesecloth give you the friction you need. The metal surface of the slide is completely different from the painted surface of a car, and the cleaning needs are not at all the same.

Gabe,

I presume from your later advice (to only use the Brass Saver in the inner tube) that you meant to advise use of the cloth-wrapped rod only in the interior of the OUTER tube?

[GabrielRice]

First of all, the best use of that terrycloth-on-the-rod thing is to dry the insides of the outer tubes before you put the instrument in the case at the end of the day. Every day.

An even better, more effective tool for that is muslin cloth wrapped around a cleaning rod, made tight enough that there is resistance when you insert it in the inner tube - not so much that you can't move it, but just enough that you have to work a little to move it. You WANT the friction. Neither terrycloth nor cheesecloth give you the friction you need. The metal surface of the slide is completely different from the painted surface of a car, and the cleaning needs are not at all the same.

Gabe,

I presume from your later advice (to only use the Brass Saver in the inner tube) that you meant to advise use of the cloth-wrapped rod only in the interior of the OUTER tube?

That's correct.

[tbonesullivan]

I'm a bit late on this, but muslin, cheesecloth, and terry cloth are all made of the same material, with the same hardness: cotton. Some Muslin is close to sheer, and the original muslin fabrics were very lightweight, so getting the right weight of muslin is key if you use it.

Cheese cloth is used to remove excess grout during tile installation, so it is not soft, and is actually used as the standard abrasive material in military testing to determine whether an optical coating is hard enough.

Muslin is not nearly as "springy" as cheese cloth or terry cloth, so if you have it small enough to get friction on the "inner" slide tube, is that really enough to clean the outer slide tube? I use cheesecloth to clean my outer slides, and they definitely get good and warm, almost hot, when I'm cleaning them.

Dan Oberloh uses soft flannel prior to any dent work, as he feels it helps any grease and other contaminants get out of the brass pores.

I definitely respect the arguments for using Muslin, but for me I have found that cheese cloth works the best for my slides and needs.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Just to piggy-back on this topic......

If you wish to store any type of trombone slide (brass,nickel, carbon fiber, etc...) for any length of time, you should dry swab all of the parts as discussed in great detail on this thread. You should also remove any additional moisture by vacuum or compressed air. Personally, I vacuum all my slides after I swab and before I put them away for storage. It removes all of the tiny water droplets for a slide that is absolutely dry.

I have seen trombone slides locked away for decades and come out of storage flawless because they were completely dry. I have also seen slides develop red rot in a matter of a few weeks because they were stored wet.

Moisture and trombone slides are strange bedfellows. We need moisture on our slides in order from them to function smoothly. Yet, moisture is a brass instrument’s number one enemy because it is the host for many types of corrosion.

[PaulT]

I have spent the last hour dry-rubbing the dickens out of all my trombone slides, whether in service or tucked away in the closet.

Glad I asked abut this. Thanks.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

LOL! Sounds like you are preparing your slides for a smoky barbecue!

Best of luck to you and may your slides work well for a long time!

[MagnumH]

Jumping on with a follow up Q - if you dry off your inner and outer slides every day, how often do you re-lube? Daily (with a cleaning beforehand), or as needed, just using additional water daily until it's necessary?

[PaulT]

If a trombone with a rotary valve is set aside for an extended time, does the valve need any special care? Oil well? Clean oil and store dry? Apologize and promise to return some day?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

When I store a trombone with valve(s) for an extended period of time, I treat the bell section the same as the slide. I inspect the entire horn for lime scale. If there is any lime scale, I give the instrument an acid cleaning (one of the advantages of having an instrument repair shop in my garage). I usually allow the entire instrument to air dry for 24 hours with all of the components pulled apart. After the 24 hours, I thoroughly vacuum the entire instrument to remove any water droplets. I use a thicker rotary oil (Hetman has a wide variety of viscosities) on the valve bearings and in the valve casing(s). The higher viscosity oils, unlike piston valve oil, do not break down over time. For the tuning slides, I use a grease with at least 50% lanolin because it can hold up for years.

Other than the oil in the valve(s) and the grease on the tuning slides, the horn is stored absolutely dry. If you are careful with all of these steps, you should be able to leave it in storage for 5-10 years and the instrument should be ready to play (you will need to apply some slide lubricant) immediately.

Note of caution: Instruments with piston valves should NOT be stored with oil in the valves. Piston valves, just like trombone slides, should be stored absolutely clean and dry.

How did I learn this process? For 12 years, I worked for a music store repair shop that did thousand of instruments every year, many of which were student rental instruments. We had to send the instruments out of the shop perfectly clean and DRY because we didn’t know when that instrument would be rented again. Sometimes the instrument would be in a student’s hands within a couple of weeks, other times the instrument might sit on a warehouse shelf for many years.

[Posaunus]

Jumping on with a follow up Q - if you dry off your inner and outer slides every day, how often do you re-lube? Daily (with a cleaning beforehand), or as needed, just using additional water daily until it's necessary?

I think once you have thoroughly cleaned and dried your slides, there will be no lube left. Time to get out the lubricant bottle before you play again. Small price to pay – a few bucks for lubricant every few months is a worthwhile investment into your valuable trombones. (It doesn't take much lube on a well-maintained slide – I've seen colleagues slather on much more lube than needed.)

Clean regularly, put away dry, enjoy playing your slippery slide!