Improvisation Regimen

[trambonetim11]

I am getting back into the swing of really PRACTICING improvisation. What are some daily or regular routines you all go to, to navigate II-V-1 patterns and blues?

[Bach5G]

Ireal Pro. Choose a tune or exercise. Dial in about 30 choruses. Go.

“Regimen”

[tbonesullivan]

Also.. LISTEN to lots of playing. You pick up ideas that way. Improvisation is a language. You need to near other people speak too to really learn.

[Gary]

Train your ear. Play simple tunes in all keys. Do ear-training, sight singing exercises. use Aebersold II-V play-along. Transcribe both to get lick ideas but also to do ear-training.

Play along with solos. Go to live concerts, support your local, live musicians. Listen to recordings voraciously. Sing along with recorded music.

Jerry Coker wrote a little primer that might help you: How to Practice Jazz
http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.m ... gory_Code=

[JLivi]

I start with students playing whole notes on each chord tone.
Go through all 12 ii-V-I’s having them play roots, 3rds, 5ths and 7ths. Then we go into arpeggios on all 36 chords and then scales as 1/8th notes.

Once we get through all of that we discuss relationships between the ii-V’s and find 1/2 step relationship (7-3) then we work on different ways to resolve between chords using sustained notes, arpeggios and scales.

I teach a lot of high school so that right there generally takes anywhere from 1-6 months. This is just Level 1 of starting to improvise for me. Then you can get into whole time, diminished, patterns by intervals after that.

And of course, while you’re doing all of this “lame” practicing you should be trying to implement the exercises into tunes.

[VJOFan]

I did exactly what the OP is asking for about two and a half decades ago...

Following the advice of one of the jazz professors from McGill University in Montreal, Canada, I developed a few chordal patterns based on voice leading. (Linear, scale based, patterns are great, but if you want to really feel the pull of a ii-V-I knowing the main chords tones is essential.)

I wrote the patterns through the cycle of fourths and in various ranges. With some finagling I also interconnected various patterns to form long chains of ii-V-I cycles.

Here is one of my C major patterns: f d a c|b d g f|e c g e. [There doesn't seem to be enough notes to the left to write it out in notation.]
The C in the first chord falls to the B in the second, the F in the second chord falls to the E in the third. You can also exploit the power of thirds rising and fifths falling/rising to roots.

It gives you a good harmonic skeleton to build upon.

[Gary]

Did I miss something? I read this as asking for information that the OP can use for himself, not to teach others with.

[Matt K]

Anything that can be done with others can just as easily be applied to one-self.

[ArbanRubank]

I have fun with Band-In-A-Box. I set up a simple, repeating chord progression for, say 64 bars. Let BiaB RealTracks soloist have the first 32 and then it's my turn.

Or swap 8 bar riffs; whatever I want. Don't like the iteration of the RealTracks solo? Overright it till I like it and go.

Different styles, tempos, keys, chord progressions, length of chorus, length of song - all easy.

[Gary]

Anything that can be done with others can just as easily be applied to one-self.

It can be applied but may be totally off target.

Regarding BIAB, I used to be almost addicted to it. That's how I learned most tune before playing live. BIAB is a great tool.

[11561man]

I would highly recommend checking out Barry Harris's methods for improvisation. Really learn how to use a dominant 7th scale and explore it, and then apply it to tunes. Blues is the most important, then rhythm changes, then the Great American Songbook. Check out his stuff.

[Matt K]

Anything that can be done with others can just as easily be applied to one-self.

It can be applied but may be totally off target.

Regarding BIAB, I used to be almost addicted to it. That's how I learned most tune before playing live. BIAB is a great tool.

Haha well, you could say the same thing about any piece of knowledge that is outside the nature of pedagogy as well

[Arrowhead]

Become a transcribing monster, even if it's just 4 measures a day.
Start transcribing your idols- write it all out; include the chord progressions.
Playing with BIAB and Aeborsolds isn't going to improve your technique- the transcribing will.

[Neo Bri]

Become a transcribing monster, even if it's just 4 measures a day.
Start transcribing your idols- write it all out; include the chord progressions.
Playing with BIAB and Aeborsolds isn't going to improve your technique- the transcribing will.

I think that all available options will increase your technique.

[ArbanRubank]

Become a transcribing monster, even if it's just 4 measures a day.
Start transcribing your idols- write it all out; include the chord progressions.
Playing with BIAB and Aeborsolds isn't going to improve your technique- the transcribing will.

I think that all available options will increase your technique.

I believe in that approach - for a lot of things. It's all good, if applied intelligently. And there are different benefits in attacking from different angles. I could easily be an Aeborsold hater or a learn-the-damn-chords hater or a play-by-ear hater, definitely a transcribe hater. But then I would be robbing myself of potential gains if I didn't at least try everything.

There are exercises I dislike when practicing. But I force myself to do them anyway, to a point.

This doesn't mean we should punish ourselves by over-doing that which we don't love just because someone else says to do it; or the counter-part of discarding that which someone else does not care for even though our instinct tells us it might be a good thing. But perhaps small doses would help to desensitize our dislike of a particular thing.

Parenting books tell us the more a small child is exposed to different things, the stronger a learner they will tend to be. I don't think it's too late for adults.

[Arrowhead]

Early Jazz was learned by transcribing and playing by ear.
The recordings were the Aeborsold's and BIAB of the day. As much as I like BIAB, play-a-longs don't replace recordings; they're only used for placing tunes in a certain context. Actually I use BIAB more for Arranging and song creating than I do improvising.
Transcribe Dixieland too- that early style of playing is still relevant and is very overlooked in our education system.

[ArbanRubank]

Early Jazz was learned by transcribing and playing by ear.
The recordings were the Aeborsold's and BIAB of the day. As much as I like BIAB, play-a-longs don't replace recordings; they're only used for placing tunes in a certain context. Actually I use BIAB more for Arranging and song creating than I do improvising.
Transcribe Dixieland too- that early style of playing is still relevant and is very overlooked in our education system.

I understand that learning to imrov has historically been successfully accomplished via a certain way and I also embrace that way. But in changing times, people can often find new ways.

I'm just curious. Have you tried out the latest-and-greatest iteration of BiaB with RealTracks? It just beats the pants off the old BiaB, with it's archaic midi files. Some of the solos (not all, but some of them) I generate with various instruments sound pretty darn good. Even though they are machine-generated, I am learning a lot by listening while following the chord changes. And I can change it all in a couple clicks. I can't do that with the vinyl recordings or CD play-alongs I might use as an imitate-along tool. They are terrific, but they are set and fixed. About the only thing I can do with them is to change tempos and maybe re-tune them to different keys (if I'm lucky).

It's interesting to hear how an alternate melody line can be formed (since BiaB has no idea what the original melody line is) in 4-bar phrases and how the solo both plays through and lands on chord notes. I find myself getting inspired and playing along using my own ideas on the same changes - after I have listened to the real notes sampled by real musicians and then used to create a deep fake, as it were.

I find my inspiration where I find it and it may or may not not be in the same place as others might find their's.

After I have a session with BiaB, I find myself listening a lot deeper to various real musicians as they do an improve on a vinyl album.

So for me, using the new BiaB as a learning tool is having a positive effect.

There are a variety of tools available that we did not have when I was a youth. I haven't even seriously thought of overdubbing an improv from a series of loops I could lay down if I embraced that particular technology.

[Matt K]

When teaching composition, dictation (which is essentially transcription) is an important element of the curriculum but it is by no means anywhere near the exclusive element. I don't see why teaching jazz improvisation would place a heavier emphasis on transcription than what is done in traditional classical composition curricula. Transcription obviously forces you to actively listen but there are many foundational skills that would ideally be learned first and possibly to the exclusion of transcription if active listening is practiced.

For one thing, if you don't have at least a decent grasp of aural theory, you are going to have a horrible time at transcribing. But once you have a decent understanding of being able to reproduce intervals and identify chords with a reference point (or without if you happen to have a really good ear) you'll be a lot more successful in even being able to approach transcribing.

Similarly, a good understanding of the various, underlying scales and how they relate to harmony is pivotal. I would (and do when I'm teaching) start students out with scales and arpeggios. Once they have the pertinent ones memorized and can play them with a reasonable degree of proficiency (up/down, in thirds, etc.) then I might introduce a transcription.

I would also suggest that being able to analyze already written music, ideally in the method that is often taught at music schools where one starts with chorales and advances to analysis with more rhythmic complexity, also tremendously helps with learning how to transcribe music.

One could argue that you pick up these skills while you learn to transcribe; however, in my pedagogical experience (backed by what seems to be the case in every music school I've observed) it is more effective to isolate and work on these skills independently, prior to doing transcription. They are vital tools for being able to effectively analyze and dictate the music and can save a lot of time and frustration.

[Pre59]

I am getting back into the swing of really PRACTICING improvisation. What are some daily or regular routines you all go to, to navigate II-V-1 patterns and blues?

I was playing largely by ear, and from what I knew as a jobbing bass player until I had some lessons with a really good jazz piano teacher. This really formalised what I already "knew", and helped me move on much quicker.
Jazz is a hybrid, and as such it's good to take lessons, and/or spend quality musical time with non-trombonists. Guitar jazz teaching DVD's and sharing cabins with chord players has also been invaluable to me.
Re navigate, learn chord patterns around and beyond the 3rd position. At this stage you may not know whether you're a "doodler" or a "fretter", I'm a fretter and I tend to think it terms of patterns rather than scales.

What are some daily or regular routines you all go to, to navigate II-V-1 patterns and blues?

Back on topic, I don't practice 251's because what I'm interested in playing is more song based, I tend to practice song segments in different keys and use a keyboard as an "understanding" aid.

Unfashionable, I know...

[Arrowhead]

Early Jazz was learned by transcribing and playing by ear.
The recordings were the Aeborsold's and BIAB of the day. As much as I like BIAB, play-a-longs don't replace recordings; they're only used for placing tunes in a certain context. Actually I use BIAB more for Arranging and song creating than I do improvising.
Transcribe Dixieland too- that early style of playing is still relevant and is very overlooked in our education system.

I understand that learning to imrov has historically been successfully accomplished via a certain way and I also embrace that way. But in changing times, people can often find new ways.

I'm just curious. Have you tried out the latest-and-greatest iteration of BiaB with RealTracks? It just beats the pants off the old BiaB, with it's archaic midi files. Some of the solos (not all, but some of them) I generate with various instruments sound pretty darn good. Even though they are machine-generated, I am learning a lot by listening while following the chord changes. And I can change it all in a couple clicks. I can't do that with the vinyl recordings or CD play-alongs I might use as an imitate-along tool. They are terrific, but they are set and fixed. About the only thing I can do with them is to change tempos and maybe re-tune them to different keys (if I'm lucky).

I tried BIAB with Real Tracks back in 2011(?). At the time it seemed bit awkward. Someone soloing (like a live track) over a given chord progression. I liked the idea but it was an awkward fit (at the time) because sometimes it would be someone playing long tones or something. I"m sure it has improved considerably since then.

I think BIAB is great for song creating and arranging. I would use it constantly when I did Arranging and Songwriting certificates through Berklee. I would just create a play along, download it as an MP3, upload it into Logic Pro, then record myself playing or singing over the track. Then mix the track and upload it. It worked out great. BIAB helped give me a context to work with. The Melodist and Harmonize features are it's strength. For improvisers, a lot of them just use the iRealPro because it can be downloaded to their phone, etc....

i think what's changed is the availability of recordings. When I first started trying to learn Jazz, I would literally have to comb vinyl record stores, hoping to find something, ANYTHING, with a Rosolino (or whomever) solo on it. It goes without saying, all that has changed drastically.

The knowledge for what to play over a ii-V7-I progression somehow seemed more inspirational listening to someone like Frank Rosolino or alto saxophonist Earl Bostic play, then just regurgitating what a certain Aeborsold says to play, etc... But educators like the "learning by book" style, because it fits more into the style of pedagogy, where everything is cut and dry, and method books are used as a pillar.

[ArbanRubank]

I tried BIAB with Real Tracks back in 2011(?). At the time it seemed bit awkward. Someone soloing (like a live track) over a given chord progression. I liked the idea but it was an awkward fit (at the time) because sometimes it would be someone playing long tones or something. I"m sure it has improved considerably since then.

I think BIAB is great for song creating and arranging. I would use it constantly when I did Arranging and Songwriting certificates through Berklee. I would just create a play along, download it as an MP3, upload it into Logic Pro, then record myself playing or singing over the track. Then mix the track and upload it. It worked out great. BIAB helped give me a context to work with. The Melodist and Harmonize features are it's strength. For improvisers, a lot of them just use the iRealPro because it can be downloaded to their phone, etc....

i think what's changed is the availability of recordings. When I first started trying to learn Jazz, I would literally have to comb vinyl record stores, hoping to find something, ANYTHING, with a Rosolino (or whomever) solo on it. It goes without saying, all that has changed drastically.

The knowledge for what to play over a ii-V7-I progression somehow seemed more inspirational listening to someone like Frank Rosolino or alto saxophonist Earl Bostic play, then just regurgitating what a certain Aeborsold says to play, etc... But educators like the "learning by book" style, because it fits more into the style of pedagogy, where everything is cut and dry, and method books are used as a pillar.

OK. I understand. The vast improvement in BiaB came in 2017, I believe. It replaced the prior noble, albeit anemic version that used midi files. I wouldn't try to improv against those. The new version takes up about 2G for just the basic program, while the RealTracks waves can take up to about 160G! It is recommended to install and run the full sha-bang from an external hard drive.

Along with the wave files comes the all-important styles. I personally like some of the accomplished sax soloists who have laid down tracks and individual notes that are used when the BiaB algorithm does a deep fake. It is those that I can learn from and play with or against.

Anyway, to get a little closer to topic, we may being seeing the end of the old-school method for learning how to improv. Too soon to really tell. It's hard to see what is a slow process; kinda like trying to watch a giant HDTV screen with our faces about 4" away.

[Arrowhead]

I don't think any software program or method book is going to replace the act of listening and using your ear. The former is only going to give the latter, another tool to work with.
The irony of the Aeborosold's is, if you ask Jamey Aeborsold what the most important thing is in learning Jazz Improv, he's going to say "listening." This is why at the front of every Aeborsold there's a preamble where he stresses the importance of listening, then lists historically significant recordings.

[ArbanRubank]

Agreed. Unless we ever get to Matrix-like learning... Whoa! I know jazz!

[Grah]

I too am a huge enthusiast of Band-in-a-Box and use it every day as a large part of my practice. I also use it to make Lead Sheets for all of the players in the two Dixieland bands in which I play. And those that have the program also get the BIAB file to practice with.

I believe one of the best things to learn as far a theory goes is which scales to use with which chords. With this knowledge, and providing you have been listening to your favourite players, you will be able to play good jazz solos.

[VJOFan]

Just "earing" one's way through improvization may not always be adequate.

Certainly, by the Bebop era, most of the well known players were not intuitive musicians. They were very cerebral.

I think it was Dizzy who advocated keyboard skills for every musician. I've read stories about how he would play harmonies of songs on the piano to be able to know what notes were there and to see what other notes sounded like against them. He'd even ask the rhythm section to add certain notes to chords or change chords to fit what he wanted to play.

You gotta know the theory to really get after stuff beyond the 1930's.

[ArbanRubank]

Just "earing" one's way through improvization may not always be adequate.

Certainly, by the Bebop era, most of the well known players were not intuitive musicians. They were very cerebral.

I think it was Dizzy who advocated keyboard skills for every musician. I've read stories about how he would play harmonies of songs on the piano to be able to know what notes were there and to see what other notes sounded like against them. He'd even ask the rhythm section to add certain notes to chords or change chords to fit what he wanted to play.

You gotta know the theory to really get after stuff beyond the 1930's.

I feel all of this is true to the greatest degree if one want's to play "cerebral", as you stated. I don't. I want to play lyrically. The stuff JJ did that I don't care all that much for was the more "cerebral" stuff. I never cared that he heard things others maybe couldn't so much and did things no one else could do on the trombone.

I would rather listen to players who play for the people, rather than for other musicians. I would rather feel like clicking my fingers, tapping my foot or even dancing - rather than sitting quietly and listening. I like emotional content, even if it's done in a more simplistic way. I have heard those who may be technically adept, but otherwise play emotionally neutral. And a solo doesn't have to be "notey" for me to like it. In fact, the more "notey" it is, the less I like it - especially when taken to the extreme, where I have no idea where the melody went.

Otherwise, I totally agree that some amount of music theory is needed to make sense and add color. But for my tastes, a little goes a long way.

This is just me and my preferences. I see things the way I see them and hear things the way I hear them. I get it that others may or may not share these preferences.

[Pre59]

Just "earing" one's way through improvization may not always be adequate.

I don't think that anybody in this topic has advocated just "earing" everything, without any reference to scales or harmony?

[Pre59]

Here's a nice example of a natural teacher. It doesn't matter that he's not a trombonist, there's some stuff to pick through here..