Playing sharp on smaller horn

[Ftroop]

I’ve always been a BIG trombone player. Moved quite early to large bore tenor and bass and generally was more of an orchestral player. I’ve eventually moved to switching between tenor & bass with work and found the switch downwards & bigger a lot easier on the day to day. The styles I play however have changed significantly over the past 3 years to the point where I borrowed a small bore trombone last year and actually buying a small horn at the start of the year.

What I’ve found is the tuning is consistently a good 20 cents sharp across the entire horn. Pulling the tuning slide till it nearly falls off kinda gets the horn in tune but can quickly go sharp. I’m finding sitting with a tuner I also feel like I’m lipping down quite a bit to get ‘in tune’. It makes it feel quite awkward and not right. Are there certain exercises that can help recentre my internal pitch centre? Or should I look at something else? Could I be using the wrong mouthpiece *for me* on my new horn?

FYI the horn is a .500 .508 dual bore, with a 7c mouthpiece
On a large bore tenor I use a Shires vintage 4g and I use a Doug Yeo custom on bass.

[BGuttman]

You are probably blowing it like your large bore. That can make it sharp. Smaller horns need more finesse and less air. Try blowing a gentler air stream. Long tones can help dial this in.

I had the exact same problem.

[Doug Elliott]

Wrong mouthpiece size for you. If you do well on a 4G which is a big diameter, chances are a 7C would give you a lot more problems than just being sharp.

[GBP]

Wrong mouthpiece size for you. If you do well on a 4G which is a big diameter, chances are a 7C would give you a lot more problems than just being sharp.

So what do you do in this type of situation? I know with the Doug Elliott mouthpieces, a player can probably setup a piece with a bigger rim without having to increase the size of the rest of the piece, but if one is not playing on your equipment, choices seem kind of limited. Would playing on a bigger than normal mouthpiece on a small bore effect the sound even if the piece matches the players face? I have known some bass trombonists who will play a small bass piece on tenor and it maybe me hearing with my eyes a bit, but they don’t have a true tenor sound.

[BGuttman]

If you play a small horn like a bass you will sound like a small bass.

I used a Bach 4C on my small bore horns until I found the Wick 4BS fit my face better. But a Doug Elliott LT 102/E/E2 works great. I had to adjust my concept to play the small bore like a small bore: don't overblow.

[Doug Elliott]

There are plenty of recordings of me on YouTube. See if you think I sound inappropriate on a small tenor. I'm using a rim bigger than a 4G.

I make my mouthpieces because nobody else does.

[Pre59]

I favour using m/s with a V or V cup profile on smaller bore horns because I find that I retain more of the lower register but with the the the advantages of a clear upper one.

I'm using a Josef Klier 8D with a sub 2B sized horn and may try an 8C yet.

[TuckerWoerner]

As Doug said, it may be an equipment issue.

You might also try this. Play with drones with the tuning slide pushed all of the way in for about 20 minutes, and then kick it out about 1/2". See what happens. This may or may not help you, but that helped me when I started doubling.

[harrisonreed]

When you play Ab on your small bore, is it much farther in front of the bell than you are used to? FWIW, you should grab both horns, your large tenor and the small bore. Test out where Ab is on both of them, side by side, and tune the small bore horn so that the Ab is in the same spot you're used to it being in relation to the bell. Then test the small bore to make sure you still have a B natural in 7. You may find that Bb is now quite a ways off of the bumpers.

My guess is that the tuning slide on the small bore will now be pushed in to around where you have it on your large bore, if you tune the Ab this way. So, IF:

1. Ab is around where you are used to; AND
2. You still have a B natural in 7th; AND
3. Your Bb is there, but now it's 1-2 inches off the bumpers; AND
4. Your tuning slide is no longer pulled out miles and miles; THEN:

You were trying to play your small bore in a way it wasn't designed to be played, and you took for granted that the bell was Ab and the closed slide was Bb. On most small bores I've played, the distance between the closed position and the bell is NOT the distance between Bb and Ab. To be fair, that's the case on large bores as well, but it's not as exaggerated on those.

Why would this be the case? So you can play Ab where you think it should be and have room in 1st for slide vibrato.

If you test all of that stuff out and you still can't make it work, your mouthpiece might be the culprit. It could be a combination of everything.

[Ftroop]

Thanks for the replies!

@ harrisonreed – I play on multiple trombones so I don't take positions as absolutes. Different sizes and brands have the distance of the bell at different lengths. But yeah, I'm finding Bb off the bumpers works better at the minute, and the positions can feel further out.

@bguttman – I've been told before about using bass trombone air on tenor. It's a concept I'm trying to visualise so I can fix, but it's a tad bit foreign to me still… How long did it take for you to get that "lightbulb" moment??

@dougelliot – I've been thinking about mouthpiece sizes as well, but didn't want to change too much too soon. I've been mulling about having a chat with you for a while so I could 'standardise' my mouthpieces a bit. FYI I settled on a 7c after trying a stack of mouthpieces last year. It gave me the flexibility and range I wanted, without making things feel too small. But I am very open to discussing.

I like the idea of long tones & drones. I did that for a little with a tuner and that's what prompted me in posting this.

[BGuttman]

Thanks for the replies!

...

@bguttman – I've been told before about using bass trombone air on tenor. It's a concept I'm trying to visualise so I can fix, but it's a tad bit foreign to me still… How long did it take for you to get that "lightbulb" moment??

...

I like the idea of long tones & drones. I did that for a little with a tuner and that's what prompted me in posting this.

It didn't happen overnight. I had to spend some time playing a small trombone in ensembles. Playing with good small bore players helps.

[Burgerbob]

Record yourself on the small horn as well. I would hazard you're not centering things the same way you might think.

I'm also a bass trombonist that had to get much better at small bore, and I spent a lot of the last year getting to that point. I think the number 1 thing that helped me was playing with trombonists that were much better at it than I. Listening to their articulations, their approach from up close. I realized how heavy I was in almost all respects, and how relaxed and efficient they had to be to get the most out of the instrument.

Nowadays my 3B+6.5AL combination is probably my favorite instrument to play.