Need Advice on Mouthpieces

[jazztonight]

I’m driving myself nuts, and need some help and advice! My conflict is about my mouthpiece.

Background: I’ve been playing trombone for a little over a year, mostly studying on my own (although I’ve had a couple of lessons). I’m a musician in my early 70s with a degree in composition. I play piano and flute, and have also played tenor sax. The trombone is my first brass instrument.

I practice over an hour pretty much every day—long tones, lip slurs, major scales, and then slowly sight-read through some kind of repertoire such as Rochut or a duet book. I then play a couple of standards or jazz tunes at slow tempos along with the iRealPro app. My goal is to play trombone in the community concert band where I currently play flute. I’m not ready yet.

My horn was gifted to me; it’s a 1935 Conn 4H, and I really like it.

I’ve been working with two different mouthpieces: a Bach 7C and a Bach 6.5AL. Although I play about the same with each, have to say I like the sound of the 6.5AL better—it’s deeper, richer, and more like the trombone sound I’d like to pursue. But I sometimes fear that it may be too big for my embouchure. I just don’t know. I’ve been using the 7C for a longer period and can often hit the higher notes a little more easily than I can with the 6.5AL.

My sound on the 7C is thinner, not as robust or deep as on the 6.5AL. The 7C seems like it’s smaller when I put it up to my mouth. My lips fit more comfortably in the 6.5AL.

My questions are:
Is there any long-term danger or risk in playing one mouthpiece vs. the other? In other words, can I harm myself? Since I’m a relative newbie and this is my first brass instrument, I really don’t know.

Will I eventually, with time, expand my higher range using either or both mouthpieces, or is one better than the other? Is there a normal pattern of advancement or evolution with mouthpieces, or what?

Currently I can play the notes in all 7 positions up to the 5th partial, and can play most of the notes going up to the 6th (flat) partial as well—it’s one of the lip slur exercises (Remington) that I practice.

Going up to the 7th partial is a challenge, especially the Bb, A, and Ab, but I practice trying to expand my range up there every day, and can often reach the F#, G, and Ab. (This seems a little easier with the 7C, but not always).

So, should I just stick with one of the mouthpieces, and if so, which one? Like I said, I don’t want to harm my lips/embouchure.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice. I’m aware that I may get conflicting opinions. I really love the trombone. I wish I’d started playing earlier in life, but I think I still have some good years left.

[BGuttman]

Lots of questions.

First, you won't make much difference to your embouchure switching off between the two mouthpieces. They are really close in size. You probably like the 6.5 AL better because it is a bit deeper. This tends to give a more "classical" sound. If you prefer the 6.5 AL, stay with it. You may find that a Wick 6BS or Yamaha 48 will feel nicer, but don't get hung up on gear acuisition yet. Get your chops in order first.

One thing: 7th Partial is VERY sharp. It's Ab in -1/2, G in sharp 2, F# is sharp 3, F in a slightly sharp 4. The partial with Bb, A, Ab, etc. is the 8th Partial. The Remington exercise "Security in the Upper Register" will help you improve your upper range. Note that it ignores the 7th Partial.

A Conn 4H is a rather small bore instrument and may feel a bit weak compared to the players with larger bore instruments in the Community Band. It would be best playing 1st Trombone where its small size lets it "sit" on top of the other voices nicely. I like a 4H for lead in Jazz Band.

Good luck.

[harrisonreed]

There is a sort of progression that exists because:

1. you won't know what works best for you right away.
2. There are obvious choices for mouthpieces to start off on, and these are generally all middle of the road mouthpieces. Beginners don't know if they will stick with it, so starting on one of those pieces is a sound strategy.
3. Even though there might be an ideal rim profile and cup diameter for your embouchure that exists at day one, as a beginner you wouldn't know how to play any mouthpiece efficiently and without trying to "muscle" out notes. So it would make progression easier to start it on the ideal rim, but probably impossible for you to know what rim that would be since you can't play ANY mouthpiece efficiently as a beginner.
4. Even if you find the way to play efficiently and have found the ideal rim profile and cup diameter for your face, the musical situation can change and you might find yourself held back by the mouthpiece. For example, you might be used to playing your nice 4H in a small jazz combo where you're miked and can just relax and let the room and mic work for you. Maybe your 7C is perfect for that. Then, you might be playing in a big band, only saxes miked, lots of people. "Trombones I can't hear you". No matter what you do, the band and maybe amplified guitars or keyboards drown you out. In that situation, a mouthpiece with the rim you use, a shallow cup, and a very open throat might be a solution for playing with more bite and volume. That's just an example, but lots of pros have specific mouthpieces for specific ensembles or styles of playing.

I want to believe that there doesn't have to be any actual progression on mouthpieces like there is in, say, weightlifting. I want to believe that someone could have come to me at age 18 or whatever when I was basically done growing and said "bruh, this is the mouthpiece that you'll be playing 90% of the time as a pro in fifteen years, and the rim unscrews because that is the rim you will use 100% of the time on everything. Here's the other two mouthpieces you'll use for your 3B and your alto that the rim screws onto. Now practice and get good". Now much time would that have saved me? Years! I honestly believe that. But there is no one there to tell us that, except perhaps an embouchure or mouthpiece expert. And when they get us the setup that is probably best, we still don't know how to play efficiently, maybe, so we don't believe that they were correct and look for a new mouthpiece. It's tough. I have no idea how anyone could know what the best mouthpiece is for them without some sort of progression. So...

Keep on the 6.5AL. It's a great Goldilocks mouthpiece to start out with! Once you feel comfortable and good and can play everything you need to play, start comparing the 6.5 to other mouthpieces.

[Trav1s]

I have a '37 24H Artist (setback bell verion of the 4H) and struggled with a mouthpiece for it for quite some time. I tried a Faxx 6.5AL, Bach 6.5AM, and Faxx 12C on it. The 6.5 size pieces just did not work with it and that makes sense considering the backbore. The 12C responded well but the rim felt too small for me and I suspect the 7C would be a good option but have not tried it.

Ultimately I leaned on a Doug Elliott combo that uses the same rim I use on .522" and .547" horns, a slightly shallower cup than I use on the .522" horns, and a D2 shank which is the key to the combo. D2 is the shank Doug recommends for .485"-.500" horns.

[ssking2b]

Try the 7C or try a Bach 6 3/4 C. The 6.5 AL doesn't now, and never did, have the right sound for a small horn.

[Bach5G]

I’d have thought the 6 & 1/2 might be too big for a 4H but ...

“have to say I like the sound of the 6.5AL better”.

But the high notes are easier on the 7C.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

[bigbandbone]

Your embouchure is still in its infancy. Pick a "beginner" mouthpiece. Usually a 12C and stick with it for a good long while. When and if it's time to change you'll know. But give your embouchure time to mature. I still use a 12C with my 4H! It compliments that .485 bore nicely.

[Kingfan]

Your embouchure is still in its infancy. Pick a "beginner" mouthpiece. Usually a 12C and stick with it for a good long while. When and if it's time to change you'll know. But give your embouchure time to mature. I still use a 12C with my 4H! It compliments that .485 bore nicely.

I differ on this. In my opinion a 12C is considered a beginner mouthpiece because most beginners are elementary school kids with smaller embouchures, but that is just an educated guess. My Bach 5 compliments my .481\.491 King 2B nicely, but only because it is the right mouthpiece for me. A forum member, Doug Elliot, is a pro musician and mouthpiece guru; you can do a Skype lesson with him and he can steer you to the right mouthpiece. I never would have considered a Bach 5 until he suggested it.

That said, I have to add that I admire you, jazztonight. We are never too old to try something new, especially in music.

[harrisonreed]

The 12C is probably not a good mouthpiece for most beginners, or most trombonists in general.

Go as far as you can with your 7C or 6.5 and then start trying out different gear once you can play all the stuff you need to play.

[Doug Elliott]

I can think of a couple of very well known great trombonists who built their playing using a 12C. So it's not inherently a bad choice. But it is definitely a bad choice for most players. I remember as a beginner being offered a 12C and I couldn't play it at all.

There was a time in my early playing when a 6-1/2AL was an excellent step up for me, as it has been for lots of players. And some players have built their careers using that mouthpiece.

I have a considerably different perspective on this as I have studied embouchures and mouthpieces for a lot of years. It's nice to play on something that both feels good and works well. If a mouthpiece feels too small, it probably is.

[baileyman]

...
1. you won't know what works best for you right away.
...

This can go on for years! Even now, I'm not sure I can differentiate between several versions of my own 1950s style middle of the road equipment. They all seem to work well enough. So to improve my horns, I try to spend better practice time. And the horns do seem to get better that way!

[jazztonight]

OP here. Thanks to everyone who has posted and contributed your trombone wisdom and experience. I truly appreciate it!

As someone new to the game, the advice to just keep playing and be patient rings true--I've worked on other instruments before and know that it takes time.

One thing I hadn't fully considered was the interplay between the mouthpieces and the Conn 4H trombone I'm playing. As much as I wish there was a magic formula, I know there isn't, and this will take time.

I'll keep working and experimenting, playing my long tones and lip slurs and etudes and scales and band parts and standards. As I do so, I'll try to both relax and "push" into the future. Patience is certainly a necessary quality here.

I have a feeling that the mouthpiece answer lies in the future, as I progress on the instrument. I plan to play for as long as I can. (Hey, I'm only 73!)

Thanks again, and best wishes to everyone!